Zymöl Vintage... what do you charge?

[David Fermani]

I'm not Ferrari-owner rich, but I have some disposable income and I like to spend it on detailing products. Over the years, I've used a myriad of different LSP's on my cars and there absolutely IS a difference between my $0.50/oz jar of Turtle Wax, and my $16/oz jar of Fuzion.



But I didn't just buy Fuzion because I said to myself "It costs more so it must be better". I did research on detailing forums. I looked at pictures from people who used it. I've done enough business with Autogeek and PBMA to know firsthand that they are a reputable company.

Pictures on the internet shouldn't support anyone's decision to buy a LSP. Pictures show nothing and anyone that thinks so is naive. You could have many of the Pro Detailers on detail forums take pictures with their big dollar cameras of an unpolished or waxed car and have it look like it just came out of a 100 hour detail and sealed with $8400 Royal.

Therefore, I feel comfortable believing their claims like:



The super polymers reinforce carnauba’s natural defense and promote maximum bonding to the paint.



Füzion repels water, dirt, dust, oil, and resists smudges and fingerprints.



Going further, I purchased a sample jar and tested it for myself. My results supported their claims.

I can name a bunch of other sealants that repel water, dirt, oil and resists smudges & fingerprints. I don't think this makes Fuzion stand out of a crowd any more than the others.

 

[DM101]

One more time and I'm out. Fact I have used all three listed below. My opinion they are not as good as Vintage by using all four many times. Fact I did not pay 2,000. Fact I get 22oz's of wax and refills of 22 oz's for life not 8 oz.... Fact I like the product and will continue to use it. OUT !!

Less your also missing the point. Because it is a fool and their money. The rich tend to spend on quality. And I don;t think anyone is disputing that Zymol is quality. They are a good product and they do work as claimed. No one is stating it's overpriced garbage or anything... The point is you can find the exact same or very comparable quality in much cheaper products. I would easily put stuff like Fuzion, Supernatural, Souverign etc etc on the same level as most Zymol products. All of them are Quality. All of them are very close to the same make up in content... So why is one over $2000 a tub and the others in the $100-$300 range? The answer is Marketing. It's the only answer that makes even a shred of sense. And while the rich that splurge on this are still getting their quality that they have to assume is there they are marketed to paying ridicolous amounts for it when the same quality can be had for much cheaper... Which means the thinking is the more it cost the better it must be... I find it really hard for anyone to actually argue that fact.

 

[Scottwax]

A local detailer adds on an extra $250 for using it, according to posts I've read

That's insane.

 

[imported_Picus]

This topic is new and exciting.

 

[DM101]

They help make the wax just melt in your hand and you apply it with your hand.



"6) Dozens of other ingredients that don't seem to be found in other waxes. It's not clear to me what exactly these are for. Perhaps all they do is make the wax smell nice. who knows. But if I were in the market for a $2K wax, I would certainly ask the question."

 

[Apollo_Auto]

Wow, was that little old me that sparked all this ? Listen guys, I've had wax/product manufacturers send me samples before so I can "try before I buy", but believe me, Zymöl is not going to do that. Therefore when buying a wax like this, how can you possibly know what the difference is before you buy it? Right you can't. Your only opinion is based on what you've read or heard and on what the manufacturer claims. Does Zymöl make absurd claims about unprecedented durability like other wax makers do? Nope. Do they say that it "does its job"? Yup, they do, just as all other wax manufacturers do. So is there really a difference in this wax or are they just trying to suck me in like the 10,000's of other people that have bought this wax over so many decades? My guess is that there really is something special about this wax other than the shiny box it comes in. Also, based on the other detailers that use this wax, the caliber of customers that request it and their repeat customers... I'm certain there is. Whether that difference is tangible or intangible will probably never be known.



This wax is not a quest for the Holy Grail of detailing products, believe me. I gave up that crusade long ago after my first tub of Dodo and after having a couple of lengthy conversations with The Dodo himself. Have I bought waxes since then? Yes (obviously ), but they were not purchased in hopes that they would outdo the last one. They were investments, just as the Vintage is. Would I use Vintage on my own cars regularly? No. I don't own a car that Vintage would compliment. For testing purposes only? Yes. My VW Rabbit Pickup is wearing 2 coats on the bonnet now. If I owned a Ferrari would I choose Vintage over my other 30+ LSP's? Yes, you're damn right I would. Bragging rights, penis enhancement, fitting to its class, etc. Do I think it would do a better job at well, its job, than something like Colly or Dodo? Possibly and I'll leave durability out of it because durability is of no importance to me personally.



I cater to customers with Fiestas, Ferraris, Koenigsseggs and Kias. Now most of my "average" customers have never asked me, "What kind of wax are you going to put on my car?" A lot of my "other" customers have. Some have actually been very informed about waxes, as well. Also, I have had customers that insist on the best wax I have and don't ask about the price. Neither do they ask the price of my detail services before rendered. They just pay in the end because they trust me, they trust my reputation and they trust my choice of "the best" for their car. If the "best" is sometimes regarded as such because of its ability to do what others can also do+its prestige, then it's the "best" for that customer. This is all about knowing your customer. Really, for "pocket change" would you tarnish your car's image with a cheap (but probably just s good) wax? Most people wouldn't.



We're all humans guys and this is how we are, whether you have money now, later or will never have. This is why some people drive a Lexus rather than a Toyota. They're all the same turds sprinkled with different glitter.



So anyone wanna tell me what they charge for an application of Vintage?

 

[David Fermani]

So is there really a difference in this wax or are they just trying to suck me in like the 10,000's of other people that have bought this wax over so many decades? My guess is that there really is something special about this wax other than the shiny box it comes in.

I'm really looking forward to your honest opinion after test driving this product. :2thumbs:



Also, because you'll be using this product on your client's vehicles, doesn't that exclude you from free refills? I always saw that at a strong selling point(value) for many who have purchased this product because they rationalize the cost throughout many years of refills which could deem it more cost effective long term.

 

[CocheseUGA]

Hopefully this is my last post in this thread. I'll try to answer the above question.



1) Highest carnauba content by volume

2) Highest grade (No. 1) carnauba

3) Free refills for life

4) Seemingly superior customer service (thanks MDRX8 for sharing your experience)

5) Extremely nice packaging

6) Dozens of other ingredients that don't seem to be found in other waxes. It's not clear to me what exactly these are for. Perhaps all they do is make the wax smell nice. who knows. But if I were in the market for a $2K wax, I would certainly ask the question.



Now, some, or possibly all of these things may not mean much to YOU. But that doesn't mean that that they aren't important to SOMEONE.



Going further (Warning: blatant speculation ahead), it's entirely possible that Zymol simply has higher operating costs than other companies. I'm guessing from MDRX8's experiences that it's probably that Zymol mixes up a tub of Vintage in very small batches, or possibly even individually. This means that the costs of materials and manufacturing setups gets spread over a much smaller number of units. It's not like Mother's or Meguiars where they're manufacturing tens of thousands of units at a time ready for immediate distribution to stores worldwide.



As mentioned, Zymol markets their product very well. This also costs money and is therefore calculated into the price.



And even if everything i just mentioned is complete mumbo-jumbo, you can't deny that their marketing and presentation of their product is superb. Imagine this example: Two restaurants serve the same T-bone steak. One is served to you in a quiet booth by a finely dressed waiter, on expensive china. The other serves your steak on a chipped piece of farberware, by a sweaty guy named Murray wearing a stained white tank-top. Can you REALLY say that one is no better than the other? If you don't care about ambiance, atmosphere, professionalism, or cleanliness, then sure, you can say that both steaks are exactly the same. But if you DO care about those things, then they obviously have value to you, and the restaurant has every right to charge you for it.

Honestly, it sounds like the marketing has done a good job on you. I still haven't heard a compelling argument (besides the refills, which I've already commented on) as to why I should buy it. You said yourself, the person who wants it on their car should ask what's in it for them. I'm pretending to be that person, and I haven't found a satisfactory answer.

Marketing is NOT the only answer. I've posted a few just a moment ago before I saw your post.



I think if you re-read what I've posted you'll see that there IS a difference between the $100-$300 waxes and the $2000 wax.

Besides $1700, what exactly? The packaging? The DuPont Registry ads? As a consumer who is considering having this put on my car, neither one matters to me.

I'm not a math major, but I'm pretty sure that 61 is more than 50. And usually more of something, means it's better.



next time you go to the drugstore, pick up a bottle of Nyquil. Take a look at the active ingredients. Notice the one that says "Cough Suppressant" and note how much it contains.



Then pick up a bottle of Delsym, and notice how much of that same ingredient it contains.



next time you have a cold, try both and see which one stifles your cough better.



Do the same thing with Halls cough drops. Notice how much menthol-lyptus is in the cherry flavored compared to the ice blue flavor. Try 'em both and see which eases your symptoms better.



Now, if carnauba wax is what protects paint from contaminants, water spots, etching, bird crap, etc. It seems logical that more carnauba means a more protective coating.



If you're still not convinced, go buy a gallon of Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams paint. Then go buy a gallon of Behr paint from home depot. Do a side by side comparison. There is NO DOUBT that the more expensive brand uses higher quality ingredients and covers better.

More isn't always better. Working in healthcare, I see it every day. And simply having more carnuba doesn't, or shouldn't, sell wax. At what point do you start getting diminishing returns? Is there a point where more is worse?

General Mills Honey nut cheerios taste better than store-brand Tasty-O's



I could go on like this forever. Sometimes there is such a thing as HIGHER QUALITY. And a company that manufactures higher quality would be a fool not to charge for it.



I find it interesting how some people can try to put a cap on how much a wax should cost. As if there is some arbitrary limit where the added quality and cost stop yielding better results.



I'm not saying that Zymol isn't overpriced. I really don't know enough about their operation, or their manufacturing costs. But I am just saying that if it were REALLY an extra $1700 JUST for a swanky box and some sexy marketing, they wouldn't sell a single unit.



I don't doubt that some of the inflated cost is simply "status" and "perceived value". But you can't put a number on that, and neither can I.



You don't work for Zymol. You don't know how they make their product. you don't know what goes into it. And you don't know what it does to paint on a microscopic level. So to sit there and claim that Fuzion, Supernatural, and Souveran are equal is completely naive.



I think alot of the anti-zymol sentiments here are motivated by jealousy.

It's all opinion. When someone is charging an extra $250 on top of a $1000 job, then I would make less of an argument. Although, it should really be about the quality of the detailer and less about the components. I'd go to the guy who got more out of less, but that's just me.



I wouldn't expect someone to detail an Enzo with Turtle Wax Ice, but there comes a point where you just spend money to say you're spending it. And, IMO (because I don't work for them and neither does anyone else here), I think there's a good bit of that in play here.



As for the claim about not being able to sell a single unit just by putting it a shiny case and marking it up, someone missed all the GM products from the 80s and 90s. It works, and more than you think.



And I'm looking forward to more hands-on reviews as well. Refills for life sounds great, but if it's limited to personal use, are you ever going to get it refilled?

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

So anyone wanna tell me what they charge for an application of Vintage?

What do you charge for your other high end wax? If it were me personally I would say normal everyday wax (my $25-$35 tubs) are included in the price of the detail. My upgraded wax (this would be Vintage, Fuzion, Dodo, etc etc anything over a $100/tub to me) would be a $25 upcharge.. But again that's just me I guess.

 

[GoudyL]

The argument here, or at least the argument that I'm trying to make, is that the average high-end car owner probably has a good enough head on his shoulders to ask why he's paying a premium for this wax.

Most of them are not going to admit the real reason.



The opinion perpetuated by others in this thread, is something along the lines of "fools and their money.....etc.".

I just find the notion that there are people in this world who are savvy enough to earn the money to buy a high-end car are, at the same time, naive enough to judge the quality of a product based solely on it's price. It's ludicrous.

Why? There are lots of rich people who are very stupid, especially when it comes to money.

I'm not a math major, but I'm pretty sure that 61 is more than 50. And usually more of something, means it's better.

More != better, especially when we are talking about a mixture containing functional ingredients.

Now, if carnauba wax is what protects paint from contaminants, water spots, etching, bird crap, etc. It seems logical that more carnauba means a more protective coating.

Not really, straight carnauba is hard to emulsify and won't form a level film all by itself.



As for protective coatings, a layer of carnauba wax floating on the paint has nothing on an branched polymer film that is anchored to the paint with aminosilicones.



And of course in many cases the Carnauba wax (which only costs ~$10/kg is cheaper than the highly functional silicones, polymers, and functionalised waxes that make an LSP what it is.



Demand for natural wax increases



You are fooling yourself if you think there is more than a few dollars worth of carnauba wax in a tub of Vintage. And it's probably not the most expensive ingredient in the formula either.



Finally, remember that as the wax dries, whatever ingredients are in it, will become more concentrated, so the composition of the final wax film really doesn't depend on the absolute concentratation of ingredients in the dilute product.

it's entirely possible that Zymol simply has higher operating costs than other companies.

Doubt it, and if they did, they could subcontract production to professional folks just like they do for the Z-503 Cleaner wax.

I wouldn't expect someone to detail an Enzo with Turtle Wax Ice,

Why not? If you look at the patent for TW Ice it's clearly a very advanced formulation. Very much suitable for an Enzo, or any other car worthy of it.



(WO/2007/126773) LIQUID POLISHING COMPOSITION AND KIT



* Silicone grafted carnauba wax.

* Silicone co-polymers

* Hyperbranched Poly-alpha olefin wax.

* PDMS Oils

* Amino silicone fluids

* Hydrophobic silica nanoparticles.

In the the liquid polishing compositions of the invention, the arnino-functional silicone and silicone-based wax components provide strength, durability, and water resistance to the resulting wax and silicone film after application to a surface; the poly(alpha olefin) component provides wax- like protection and promotes uniform shine and polish deposition, the volatile silicone component provides ease of application and helps control drying time; while the petroleum-based carrier provides chemical cleaning, controls the deposition of the various ingredients of the composition, and provides for easy removal of excess polishing composition.

To be perfectly honest, I would gladly bet a TW Ice Paste polishing kit, vs Lucite Cube of Zymol Vintage that given equal surface preparation, a car polished with properly applied TW Ice paste (e.g Applied, hazed, and then sprayed with Ice QD before buffing) would either not be distinguished from or even preferred to Zymol Vintage by a blind panel of judges.

 

[Scottwax]

Now most of my "average" customers have never asked me, "What kind of wax are you going to put on my car?" A lot of my "other" customers have.

I very rarely get asked what wax I'm going to use, even by my high end customers. I guess they assume that I'm not putting junk on their cars after spending all that time polishing it. :nixweiss



I've upsold Souveran a few times, but honestly, for what it costs per use I probably shouldn't charge extra for applying it.



I guess you'll have to figure out what each application will cost and tack on some profit.

 

[white gecko]

I very rarely get asked what wax I'm going to use, even by my high end customers. I guess they assume that I'm not putting junk on their cars after spending all that time polishing it. :nixweiss



I've upsold Souveran a few times, but honestly, for what it costs per use I probably shouldn't charge extra for applying it.



I guess you'll have to figure out what each application will cost and tack on some profit.

Since I primarily use Zaino, and most know that going into the detail, I find it hard explaining why a 'nuba would be better. It has its upsides, but most of my customers love the sealant durability.



So, I always tell them what I'm going to use, or ask their preferrence. If I just used some P21S 100% and 6 weeks later their car needed more, most of them would not be happy. Maybe its my area though? I do offer P21S 100% as a lower cost option vs. Zaino, and also offer Swissvax Concorso for a bit more. I have yet to have someone opt for the lower cost P21S 100% though.

 

[Apollo_Auto]

Scott and Jake:



If the customer doesn't ask what wax I'll be using I always ask them. If I polish or wax a car I always tell them that the wax in that package is a very basic wax that offers moderate protection and so on. Then I explain to them what carnauba is and then show them two or three waxes that I would recommend for their car/color. Those 2-3 are usually a high/med/low cost ranging anywhere from +$20 (Dodo for example) to +$80 (Concorso or SN). Maybe I have an advantage being the only Autopian style detailer in the country (besides Bence) and being the only one that offers high-grade waxes, but people do pay these prices and some don't even ask. I guess upselling has followed me from my many years as a salesman and I'm glad for that because it makes me a lot of extra $$. Aside from the customers that are having their cars cleaned to be sold, I haven't missed an upsell yet .

 

[DM101]

Based on the above I'd charge $100 upcharge. If you apply by using your hands as recommended you could charge more because of the labor involved. Massaging in Vintage is a neat experience.

 

[CocheseUGA]

Why not? If you look at the patent for TW Ice it's clearly a very advanced formulation. Very much suitable for an Enzo, or any other car worthy of it.



(WO/2007/126773) LIQUID POLISHING COMPOSITION AND KIT



* Silicone grafted carnauba wax.

* Silicone co-polymers

* Hyperbranched Poly-alpha olefin wax.

* PDMS Oils

* Amino silicone fluids

* Hydrophobic silica nanoparticles.







To be perfectly honest, I would gladly bet a TW Ice Paste polishing kit, vs Lucite Cube of Zymol Vintage that given equal surface preparation, a car polished with properly applied TW Ice paste (e.g Applied, hazed, and then sprayed with Ice QD before buffing) would either not be distinguished from or even preferred to Zymol Vintage by a blind panel of judges.

I picked TW Ice purely at random. I have no experience with it, but I assume most pro detailers here aren't using it.



And for the last bit, I agree. I think the people defending it without using it are simply buying into the hype and price point.

 

[BobD]

Pictures on the internet shouldn't support anyone's decision to buy a LSP. Pictures show nothing and anyone that thinks so is naive. You could have many of the Pro Detailers on detail forums take pictures with their big dollar cameras of an unpolished or waxed car and have it look like it just came out of a 100 hour detail and sealed with $8400 Royal.

I agree. I look at a lot of motorcycles on ebay that look like they just rolled off the line and when I go to take a look in person they look like someone sanded them with a brick and left it.

 

[Less]

David Fermani - I listed several other reasons why I bought Fuzion besides pictures. And besides, your argument only holds water if you assume that everyone posting pictures is doing so in a sinister attempt to mislead potential buyers of a particular product. I chose Fuzion for many reasons, but I never said "It costs more, so it must be better"



And I'm shocked at the sentiment throughout this thread that people with money are so stupid. My favorite quote so far is this one from GoudyL



"There are lots of rich people who are very stupid, especially when it comes to money"



Sure maybe there's some. But this kind of broad, sweeping, generalization about people who EARN thousands and millions of dollars through hard work and business savvy is completely and absolutely assinine.



And CocheseUGA, this thread, and others have listed dozens of reasons that contribute to the higher price of Zymol. Just because they aren't important to YOU, doesn't mean that they aren't important to anyone. I don't know why you insist that everyone should think like YOU or have the same opinion as YOU, or value the same things that YOU do. But you need to get over yourself.



Just because someone has money and chooses to spend it on something differently than you would if you actually had the money yourself doesn't make them stupid. If you're so smart, why aren't you rich enough to blow two grand on wax?



Finally, I'm going to repeat my main argument one more time. And it's not an opinion, it's indisputable economic fact.



ZYMOL VINTAGE IS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, AND IN ALL OTHER WAYS WORTH EVERY CENT THAT THEY CHARGE FOR IT.



Why? Simply put; BECAUSE PEOPLE BUY IT.



If it didn't have $2100 worth of value to SOME people out there, they wouldn't sell a single tub. The fact is that they do sell it, and have for over 50 years.



The sentiment that every single customer who bought Vintage is stupid is ridiculous. It would be pretty tough for Zymol to build a business on Trust Fund Babies who don't understand the value of a dollar. MOST of their customers are people who have EARNED enough money through hard work, education, and financial savvy, to be able to spend $2 g's on wax.



Just because you aren't one of them, doesn't mean that they're all stupid.

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

Less I think your getting all bent out of shape over an opinion that in the end just dosen't matter. You're spouting off telling people that see this as a stupid and foolish purchase to get over themselves because we don't see things the way "Rich" people obviously do... Yet you're doing the exact same thing. We are all entitled to our opinion. The fact that I would never drop $2100 on a wax isn't going to put zymol out of business. The fact that you would if you could isn't going to save their business. It's just a difference of opinion nothing more.

 

[Eisen Hulk]

Great minds think alike? I was thinking an additional $100 as well.



Jesse,



Whatever you decided to charge, I'm sure will be fine. Your work speaks for itself. If I'm bringing my new 16M (Hypothetically speaking, of course) to you, and you try to sell me on an additional $100 for one of the world's elite waxes...I'm probably going to say, do it. That's because I've probably done my homework, and heard through the grapevine that your work is second to none.



I'm looking forward to the review.



Cheers!

Based on the above I'd charge $100 upcharge. If you apply by using your hands as recommended you could charge more because of the labor involved. Massaging in Vintage is a neat experience.

 

[Less]

Less I think your getting all bent out of shape over an opinion that in the end just dosen't matter. You're spouting off telling people that see this as a stupid and foolish purchase to get over themselves because we don't see things the way "Rich" people obviously do... Yet you're doing the exact same thing. We are all entitled to our opinion. The fact that I would never drop $2100 on a wax isn't going to put zymol out of business. The fact that you would if you could isn't going to save their business. It's just a difference of opinion nothing more.

I see your point Jake, but that's not why I'm bent out of shape.



I'm bent out of shape because people aren't saying "It's not worth it to me". they are saying "It's not worth it to me, and shouldn't be worth it to anyone. And if it is worth it to you, then you're stupid".



It's such an ignorant argument, and it frustrates me beyond belief.



This really isn't a question of how much carnuaba is enough, or what kind of oils make a car look better. It really boils down to two things.



1) Simple economics. A product is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Therefore, Vintage IS ABSOLUTELY worth $2,100, and not a penny less.



2) Basic human psychology. It's the same whether we're talking about a Caddy vs Chevy, bottled water vs tap water, or Turtle wax vs Zymol. The percieved "wastefulness" of the higher priced product is simply that: perception. Those who are the "have-not's" tend to over-value what they have, and consequently de-value what others have as a means to cope with their own insecurity and envy.



Note: #2 above is not my opinion. It's my wife's. She holds a master's degree AND a Doctorate in psychology to go along with her 10+ years of clinical experience.



There is no published ingredient by ingredient comparison of Turtle wax vs Zymol, nor is there an objective scientific test to determine the comparitive durability, slickness, ease of use, etc. Therefore, in the absence of that kind of scientific comparison, this whole argument centers around one thing: JEALOUSY.