Zymöl Vintage... what do you charge?

[SuperBee364]

You don't HAVE to read it. Nobody's holding a jar of Zymol to your head. :LOLOL

That's going in my sig...

This topic is new and exciting.

For sure! Nice to see a "never been beat to death" topic like this, ain't it?

I see your point Jake, but that's not why I'm bent out of shape.



I'm bent out of shape because people aren't saying "It's not worth it to me". they are saying "It's not worth it to me, and shouldn't be worth it to anyone. And if it is worth it to you, then you're stupid"..

I like that bold part a lot.



Vintage is good wax. Breitling is a good watch. Ferrari is a good car.



But then again, so is Collinite, Casio, and Toyota.



There's a perfect fit for everyone; no need to degrade, brow beat, or get angry over what anyone chooses as the right fit for them.

 

[02zx9r]

It is not worth it to me, so I am not going to buy it. If it is worth it to you, then you can buy it, just know that if you do, you are stupid

 

[Apollo_Auto]

Great minds think alike? I was thinking an additional $100 as well.



Jesse,



Whatever you decided to charge, I'm sure will be fine. Your work speaks for itself. If I'm bringing my new 16M (Hypothetically speaking, of course) to you, and you try to sell me on an additional $100 for one of the world's elite waxes...I'm probably going to say, do it. That's because I've probably done my homework, and heard through the grapevine that your work is second to none.



I'm looking forward to the review.



Cheers!

Thanks Hulk! I would too pay an extra $100 too .

 

[MarcHarris]

It is not worth it to me, so I am not going to buy it. If it is worth it to you, then you can buy it, just know that if you do, you are stupid

says the person with a ZX-9r? Now would this be the train of thought of "you spend money on expensive things so you're stupid", or more like purchasing an extremely dangerous vehicle with no safety equipment as a mode of transportation (a bike) stupid?



You see how stupid can get stupid pretty fast right? You like sport-bikes (i'm going to jump to that conclusion from your name) which are pretty damn stupid according to some people for good reason. But if you enjoy them, and think of a bike as money well spent with no regrets, are you still stupid?



How about if rather than a Honda Civic Si, I buy a new Ducati 1098: am I stupid?

How about if rather than a Ducati 1098, I purchase two ZX-9's?

How about if rather than by a ZX-9, I purchase a ZX-6 AND Zymol Vintage? Am I stupid?



+1 to "Something is worth what people are willing to pay for it."

 

[02zx9r]

Wow people really are touchy on this subject huh? Only you know if you are stupid Mutt for buying a Civic Si, Ducati 1098 (but if you are going to spend the dough for a 1098 you might as well spend the other $15K and get the 1098R with the works traction control, etc,..) two zx9's, or the zx9 and zx6. Are you stupid?



I was totally kidding about the stupid thing. Just kinda being a wise a$$. I see on my first post where I left out the J/K part. My bad.



I really could care less if anyone buys Vintage or not. If you want to buy it then buy it. If you dont want to or cant really justify the cost, well then dont buy it. It is as simple as that.



I bought my bike in 2004 and could care less what you or anyone else thinks. Most sportbike riders get frowned upon because of the stupid things they do, zipping in and out of cars, doing wheelies on the highway etc...

-I dont do those things because I dont want to crash (again) and I dont like being hurt. Wheelies look cool and I see plenty of people that do them, and I have seen several where they dump it and they pick up the bike and oil is spilling out everywhere, well I choose to not go through that.



This past Sunday 55 of us went on a memorial ride for a 23yo kid who died of cancer last year that owned a bike. One of the dumba$$e$ did a wheelie on the highway and fell off the bike, cars had to swerve out of the way and it stopped traffic, a lot of road rash. Sucks to be him. That was stupid.

 

[CocheseUGA]

David Fermani - I listed several other reasons why I bought Fuzion besides pictures. And besides, your argument only holds water if you assume that everyone posting pictures is doing so in a sinister attempt to mislead potential buyers of a particular product. I chose Fuzion for many reasons, but I never said "It costs more, so it must be better"



And I'm shocked at the sentiment throughout this thread that people with money are so stupid. My favorite quote so far is this one from GoudyL



"There are lots of rich people who are very stupid, especially when it comes to money"



Sure maybe there's some. But this kind of broad, sweeping, generalization about people who EARN thousands and millions of dollars through hard work and business savvy is completely and absolutely assinine.



And CocheseUGA, this thread, and others have listed dozens of reasons that contribute to the higher price of Zymol. Just because they aren't important to YOU, doesn't mean that they aren't important to anyone. I don't know why you insist that everyone should think like YOU or have the same opinion as YOU, or value the same things that YOU do. But you need to get over yourself.



Just because someone has money and chooses to spend it on something differently than you would if you actually had the money yourself doesn't make them stupid. If you're so smart, why aren't you rich enough to blow two grand on wax?



Finally, I'm going to repeat my main argument one more time. And it's not an opinion, it's indisputable economic fact.



ZYMOL VINTAGE IS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, AND IN ALL OTHER WAYS WORTH EVERY CENT THAT THEY CHARGE FOR IT.



Why? Simply put; BECAUSE PEOPLE BUY IT.



If it didn't have $2100 worth of value to SOME people out there, they wouldn't sell a single tub. The fact is that they do sell it, and have for over 50 years.



The sentiment that every single customer who bought Vintage is stupid is ridiculous. It would be pretty tough for Zymol to build a business on Trust Fund Babies who don't understand the value of a dollar. MOST of their customers are people who have EARNED enough money through hard work, education, and financial savvy, to be able to spend $2 g's on wax.



Just because you aren't one of them, doesn't mean that they're all stupid.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. I simply am looking for reasons why people would spend the extra money on this, and all you can contribute is 'Because it is.' I'm sorry, but while that may be a valid reason for you, I don't consider that a real answer.



That's nice that you believe that it's worth it because of what ever reasons you do. But since it's apparent you don't use it, I don't think you're qualified to answer my question. The only person who needs to get over themselves is you, as you try to continue to answer a question that isn't directed at you. I never said, or even intimated, that anything I said was more than my opinion. Taking it in a different manner is your fault. Further, I'm not sure how I can be jealous of a product I'll most likely never buy because I'm not their intended audience. I'm very happy with the products I use.



Now, I restate my question: what makes it special? So far, we've gotten a few facts about the content of it, but that doesn't necessarily answer the question. Why is more nuba better, and is there a point where it becomes too much?



And to the people who have bought it: does Zymol have any stipulations on refills, such as 'can only be used for non-commercial purposes'? I don't think an upcharge of $100 or $250 on a high-end vehicle is anything to get too upset about. But the difference of at least $1700, at the risk of not getting your product refilled, is something to think about.



And I would have to agree there's a lot of people with money that don't know how to act with it. The difference usually is if they earned it, versus having come into it or getting it. Or 'earning' it like a lot of these lavish celebrities.

 

[Barry Theal]

87 and counting. this is great all jesse wanted to know was how much to upcharge. lol I love these forums. i could see all of us in a room someday argueing over this stuff. lol imagine a big room of detailers argueing over waxes lmao!

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

87 and counting. this is great all jesse wanted to know was how much to upcharge. lol I love these forums. i could see all of us in a room someday argueing over this stuff. lol imagine a big room of detailers argueing over waxes lmao!

Isn't that what SEMA is for LOL:rofl

 

[Less]

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. I simply am looking for reasons why people would spend the extra money on this, and all you can contribute is 'Because it is.' I'm sorry, but while that may be a valid reason for you, I don't consider that a real answer. .

Cochese, I give up. Apparently you can't read because the answer to your question has been given several times.



I'm not going to repeat myself. The information that you're looking for, as near as I can tell, is in post #57. Based on the extremely limited research that I've done on this product, there are at least six definitive items that contribute to the overall cost of the product.

That's nice that you believe that it's worth it because of what ever reasons you do. But since it's apparent you don't use it, I don't think you're qualified to answer my question. .

And clearly you misunderstand everything I've said thus far.



I'm not touting ZV as the greatest wax of all time. I'm not saying that I know for a fact that it is better than any other wax. I've even qualified my statements several times by saying that I've never used it.



All I'm saying is that it IS worth the price. And I don't need any more evidence beyond the fact that people buy it, at that price. That is a fact, and it is indisputable.

The only person who needs to get over themselves is you, as you try to continue to answer a question that isn't directed at you. I never said, or even intimated, that anything I said was more than my opinion. Taking it in a different manner is your fault. Further, I'm not sure how I can be jealous of a product I'll most likely never buy because I'm not their intended audience. I'm very happy with the products I use.

Yes, you've stated your opinion. You believe that this product is NOT worth the exorbitant price tag. That's fine. But your reservations about the product are questions of fact. And when presented with the facts, or at least the very limited ones that I've provided, you refuse to acknowledge them.



As an example, when you asked "what makes it better". I did some research and found, among other things, that it contains the MOST carnauba wax by volume. That fact is not in dispute. So then you formulated a new opinion that a higher carnauba content isn't enough to justify a higher price.



I've consulted an experienced psychological professional with at least a half dozen letters after her name and she's given me some insight on why you might have that opinion. I believe that you're demonstrating an example of basic human behavior. People want what they can't have. So they convince themselves that they don't want it, or don't need it, as a means of coping with that insecurity. And seriously, if it's a big problem for you, please PM me and I'll ask my wife to recommend an APA certified therapist in your area.

Now, I restate my question: what makes it special? So far, we've gotten a few facts about the content of it, but that doesn't necessarily answer the question. Why is more nuba better, and is there a point where it becomes too much?.

If you want to know WHY Zymol costs that much, and what sets it apart from the competition, I can't answer that. I've never pretended that I could. All I've stated is that I am willing to give the Zymol company the benefit of the doubt based on the fact that they've successfully sold this product at an exorbitant price for the last half century.



What I can tell you is, you WON'T get the answer to your question here. I suggest that you call 1-800-999-5563 and ask the Zymol company yourself why you need canteloupe oil on your car. I would actually be curious to know what they say.

And I would have to agree there's a lot of people with money that don't know how to act with it. The difference usually is if they earned it, versus having come into it or getting it. Or 'earning' it like a lot of these lavish celebrities.

There's that jealousy again. You're presenting your opinion "people with money don't know how to act with it" as fact. Since you're clearly not a multi-billionaire, what qualifies you to determine how someone should, or should not act with their money? Now, I don't doubt that there are wealthy people who spend irresponsibly. But to put ALL zymol customers in that category is simply ignorant.

 

[CocheseUGA]

Since you can't seem to understand what I type, I'll stop responding to you.

 

[Dsoto87]

Wow, the man asks how much to upcharge and the thread turns into an argument about why ZV is/isnt worth the money.



Why do soooooo many people get their panties in a bunch about this wax?



This thread was already done with in the first page or two. Someone answered it mathematically.

 

[Less]

Why do soooooo many people get their panties in a bunch about this wax?

This might sound sarcastic but it's not.



The argument really isn't about the wax, or its performance compared to other products.



People get their 'panties in a bunch' because the real issue here is a question of economics and human behavior.



There are those that understand the economic principles that determine the price of a product, and there are those that don't. As I've stated, people formulate opinions as a coping mechanism to deal with their own insecurities and jealousy. By refuting those opinions, you are re-opening those wounds, and thus people are compelled to react by formulating even stronger opinions.



In this case, some even gone so far as to say those who disagree (ie, those who pay for and use Vintage) are stupid, or are irresponsible with their money. Since it's clearly impossible to categorically apply this label to 50 years worth of Zymol users; these assertions are nothing more than a coping mechanism for envy, ignorance, and insecurity.



People's panties get bunched because this debate has little to do with wax, and more to do with personal pride. By admitting that zymol is a better product, we are admitting that there are detailers out there whose work is better than ours. We are admitting that there are paint finishes out there that are nicer than ours. We are admitting that the rich are better than we are, etc.



If this were REALLY about wax, don't you think that there would be more pictures and personal accounts of ACTUAL Zymol usage?

 

[CocheseUGA]

Wow, the man asks how much to upcharge and the thread turns into an argument about why ZV is/isnt worth the money.



Why do soooooo many people get their panties in a bunch about this wax?



This thread was already done with in the first page or two. Someone answered it mathematically.

Why do people attack someone for asking for an opinion? Naturally, when someone brings up a product that's far and above the cost of other products of the class, people will want to know what makes the product worth it. And in doing so, we ask for opinions about the product.



I don't know why accusations of jealousy and psych issues get involved. Fanboism, I suppose.

 

[GoudyL]

Based on the extremely limited research that I've done on this product, there are at least six definitive items that contribute to the overall cost of the product.

Except that they are unpersuasive to anyone familiar with fine chemical manufacturing.

As an example, when you asked "what makes it better". I did some research and found, among other things, that it contains the MOST carnauba wax by volume. That fact is not in dispute. So then you formulated a new opinion that a higher carnauba content isn't enough to justify a higher price.

We've establisted, that the "most carnauba" is vague/meaningless in the context of product(s) that is a mixture of functional ingredients.



Also no one has ever explained what the 61% is relative too? Is it 61% of the weight of total solid ingredients, 61% of the net weight of the finished product, 61% of the wax ingredients etc.



My own guess is that its 61% of the wax ingredients, which may be only fraction of the total formula.

I've consulted an experienced psychological professional with at least a half dozen letters after her name and she's given me some insight on why you might have that opinion.

Sounds like an argument based on an appeal to authority.

I believe that you're demonstrating an example of basic human behavior. People want what they can't have. So they convince themselves that they don't want it, or don't need it, as a means of coping with that insecurity.

How about if the folks involved are well adjusted and without the pathalogical need to find meaning in thier lives/impress others with displays of wealth?

All I've stated is that I am willing to give the Zymol company the benefit of the doubt based on the fact that they've successfully sold this product at an exorbitant price for the last half century.

Since the company was founded in 1980, that's quite a feat.

I suggest that you call 1-800-999-5563 and ask the Zymol company yourself why you need canteloupe oil on your car. I would actually be curious to know what they say.

Why? Because you can afford it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

There's that jealousy again. You're presenting your opinion "people with money don't know how to act with it" as fact.

It's been amply demonstrated in so many examples that having money is not a reliable indicator of any other personal quality except for having money.

Since you're clearly not a multi-billionaire, what qualifies you to determine how someone should, or should not act with their money?

If you belive that ethics/values have an objective or even semi-objective basis than anyone with basic reasoning ability is qualified.



Just cause a multi-billionaire says 2+2 =5, doesn't mean it is so.

Now, I don't doubt that there are wealthy people who spend irresponsibly. But to put ALL zymol customers in that category is simply ignorant.

Why? If it can be established that Zymol vintage offers no tangible improvement over other waxes, then it can be shown that the incremental money spent on Zymol Vintage is wasted/could be better spent on other things.

 

[Less]

Why do people attack someone for asking for an opinion? Naturally, when someone brings up a product that's far and above the cost of other products of the class, people will want to know what makes the product worth it. And in doing so, we ask for opinions about the product.



I don't know why accusations of jealousy and psych issues get involved. Fanboism, I suppose.

I'm surprised you use the word "Attack". I simply stated economic and psychological facts. Nothing more. If you interpret it as an attack, then I must have hit home. Once again, I invite you to PM me so I can recommend a therapist to help you deal with your insecurities.



Secondly, I want to set the record straight. You never "asked for an opinion". You asked for facts. And when you were presented with those facts, you debunked them with more of your own opinions



Finally I find it completely illogical that you can accuse me of Fanboy-ism for a product I've never even used.

 

[Less]

Please see my comments in red

Except that they are unpersuasive to anyone familiar with fine chemical manufacturing.



If you have expert knowledge of chemical manufacturing, then please feel free to share it. I find this reply very ironic because simply stating that these arguments are "unpersuasive" is, in itself, unpersuasive





We've establisted, that the "most carnauba" is vague/meaningless in the context of product(s) that is a mixture of functional ingredients.



When was that established. And I don't know what you mean by "vague". The word "most" is a very definitive term. And I'm going to take your assertion of "meaningless" to be your personal opinion. That is, unless you care to share your expert knowledge of wax manufacturing. I'm very anxiousl to learn why you call carnauba a meaningless ingredient when it serves as the core of EVERY single car wax on the market.



Also no one has ever explained what the 61% is relative too? Is it 61% of the weight of total solid ingredients, 61% of the net weight of the finished product, 61% of the wax ingredients etc.



My own guess is that its 61% of the wax ingredients, which may be only fraction of the total formula.



Your "guess" isn't a fact. It's just a thinly veiled opinion. And it was established that the 61% is by volume. Therefore, I would expect that a 22oz tube of Vintage contains just over 13 oz's of pure No1 Brazillian white carnauba.





Sounds like an argument based on an appeal to authority.



And throwing around your familiarity with fine chemical engineering isn't?



How about if the folks involved are well adjusted and without the pathalogical need to find meaning in thier lives/impress others with displays of wealth?



What about them? I think everyone should strive to find happiness in their lives. It sounds to me like you are categorizing ZV users as needing to find meaning in their lives through displays of wealth. Could you at least acknowledge that there are OTHER posssible motivations for buying the product? Or are all Zymol users just manifesting this "pathological need"



Since the company was founded in 1980, that's quite a feat.



I stand corrected. SOMEONE has been selling this product for over half a century. The formula for vintage was developed in 1947.



Why? Because you can afford it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

There's that jealousy again. You're presenting your opinion "people with money don't know how to act with it" as fact.

It's been amply demonstrated in so many examples that having money is not a reliable indicator of any other personal quality except for having money.



Examples don't necessarily explain general truths or trends. And your personal interpretation of these, currently uncited, examples is not fact. This statement just furthers my theory of personal insecurity. You don't want to admit that rich people are smart, because you think you're smart. And since you're not rich, you must not be as smart as they are. As I said to Cochese, please PM me, so I can recommend an APA certified therapist so you can work through this insecurity.



If you belive that ethics/values have an objective or even semi-objective basis than anyone with basic reasoning ability is qualified.



Just cause a multi-billionaire says 2+2 =5, doesn't mean it is so.



You're confusing the argument. We are not debating mathematical facts. We're discussing the "perceived value" of a product that is exorbitantly expensive compared to its peers. I never said that just because people buy it, that makes it good. However, the fact that people buy it, is definitive proof that it is worth the price.



Why? If it can be established that Zymol vintage offers no tangible improvement over other waxes, then it can be shown that the incremental money spent on Zymol Vintage is wasted/could be better spent on other things.



Except you haven't established that. Furthermore, you're confusing your own opinions and values with economic realities. Even if what you say above IS true and you CAN establish that the incremental money spent on Zymol Vintage is disproportional to the tangible benefits, there are OTHER factors that you are ignoring. Maybe the refills, the packaging, or even the smell are important to Zymol buyers. Maybe they like the piece of mind that comes from buying from such a repuatable company. Maybe they enjoy the red carpet service. Just because those things don't have any value to YOU, doesn't mean that they dont' have value to anyone else. You're assertion of "money better spent" is an opinion, and you are presenting as fact to cover your own insecurities.

 

[CocheseUGA]

Except that they are unpersuasive to anyone familiar with fine chemical manufacturing.







We've establisted, that the "most carnauba" is vague/meaningless in the context of product(s) that is a mixture of functional ingredients.



Also no one has ever explained what the 61% is relative too? Is it 61% of the weight of total solid ingredients, 61% of the net weight of the finished product, 61% of the wax ingredients etc.



My own guess is that its 61% of the wax ingredients, which may be only fraction of the total formula.







Sounds like an argument based on an appeal to authority.







How about if the folks involved are well adjusted and without the pathalogical need to find meaning in thier lives/impress others with displays of wealth?







Since the company was founded in 1980, that's quite a feat.







Why? Because you can afford it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:







It's been amply demonstrated in so many examples that having money is not a reliable indicator of any other personal quality except for having money.







If you belive that ethics/values have an objective or even semi-objective basis than anyone with basic reasoning ability is qualified.



Just cause a multi-billionaire says 2+2 =5, doesn't mean it is so.







Why? If it can be established that Zymol vintage offers no tangible improvement over other waxes, then it can be shown that the incremental money spent on Zymol Vintage is wasted/could be better spent on other things.

This is the kind of discussion I was looking for. We can all go to the website and look at what it is, and even call the company. But that's a biased answer to the question. While it can be used in part to form a conclusion, I think discussion here is useful.



I don't hazard a guess as to what the 61% means. I assumed it to be 61% by volume, but that's really not important to me. Is 61% better than 50%? The 'more is always better' argument is a lie, so it remains to be seen what the advantage is, and if there is such thing as too much. If there's something else that works better, then more is certainly not better. I refer that to what scottwax said.



It was developed in 1947. And? I'm not of the opinion that old is better. And I'm certainly not in favor of continuing to do something just because that's the way it's always been done. They didn't have clay back then. There's been too many advances in not only car care innovation, but advances in paint as well. Being established doesn't always equal what's best.



I'm equally interested in the technique about using it by hand. Does it add to the product, or is it a visceral experience? Either way, could it also be applied to other waxes? Or does either of those things only enhance the product in question?



I've already established my opinion that it could be financially a good idea to purchase it based on the concept of free refills. I wonder if that wasn't in play, how much that remains true. Companies don't last forever, and I'm sure they could rescind the offer whenever they choose. Apollo has already stated that the refills don't really matter to him since he's upcharging (or I may have inferred that). I wonder what others would have to say on that.



I could certainly afford buying it. The question isn't a matter of being able to afford something. The question is one of value. And if you can only say that you prefer it and that's it, that's cool. There's a few things in my life that I can't explain why I prefer something, so I definitely get that aspect. I'll even take theories and guesses over a corporate wax job (pun intended). But for someone who's genuinely curious about the product, it's a question I like to ask.

 

[NSXTASY]

In an attempt to address the thread topic:



Assuming your fee structure is based on (#hours *HrlyRate)=Price, I would guess applying vintage with hands/"sweating"/re-wiping/etc., takes longer than other LSPs.



If it takes 1.5 hours to properly apply from start to finish of the LSP stage, and your rate is $70/hr=105



It seems logical and does not come across as an arbitrary number (although it may be).

 

[MarcHarris]

while i agree with your OPINION CocheseUGA, as I wouldn't be able to justify the price, it is quite simple that this wax is worth that price simply because someone will pay that price for the goods.

This isn't a 2+2=5 situation. This is more of a Picaso painting situation. Surely paintings didn't take 1 million dollars to make. So why should a painting be worth a million dollars?

Carnauba percentages have been proven over and over to be worthless in high end detailing other than as a bragging point. With high grade raw 'nuba costing under 10 bucks a pound, there's not much special about having a wax with an extremely high nuba content, other than it makes it that much harder to apply IMHO.

Surely you have to give them credit for development and marketing, and if nothing else the cost is due to the product being exclusive. Maybe not worth a few select ingredients, exclusivity, and the developing cost to you: but if they're target consumer group is willing to pay 2k, then it's worth 2k

 

[David Fermani]

I listed several other reasons why I bought Fuzion besides pictures. And besides, your argument only holds water if you assume that everyone posting pictures is doing so in a sinister attempt to mislead potential buyers of a particular product. I chose Fuzion for many reasons, but I never said "It costs more, so it must be better"

Right, you did “research on detail forums” (don’t know what that proved?) and went off of AutoGeek’s advertisement on how great it is because they’re so reputable. I agree, they are a reputable & successful company, but they’re trying to move product just like every other company. You’d figure they’d try to pump up their high end wax to the max when their profit margin is most likely expotentially greater that all the others they offer. I went to their Detail Fest and can assure you that no vehicle(s) stood out better because it had Fuzion (or any other LSP) on it. Any possible difference or characteristic most of these exotic waxes give gets washed away after the 1st good wash anyways IMHO.



I’m not saying or assuming that anyone is posting bogus pictures one bit. I’m saying that there are many people here that can edit their pics to bump up the wetness and gloss to turn a scratched up POS into a masterpiece that anyone would ooh and ahh over. Don’t forget when many companies post pictures of great looking cars in their advertisements, they’re created by professional photographers. I know AutoGeek has a team of photographers on hand for their ads (which look great BTW).





Just because a wax is formulated for a 1947 Bentley, 1937 Bugatti, 1930 Duesenberg or even a 1991 F-40 doesn’t mean anything. Wax won’t help a car win Pebble Beach or any other Concourse event. Spending 1000’s of hours prepping the chassis and finishing it off with perfectly true to class paint is what does. Any of those cars could have had the cheapest, most crappiest wax and they would have still won. Car show judges determine the authenticity and how properly preserved a vehicle is and I'll bet they most likely can't distinguish the somewhat insignificant differences what wax was used.