Zaino vs NXT
- Thread starter newf
- Start date
I agree half the ZFX mixing bottle should get you 3 coats.I usually put in 3 drops on a 1 oz. mix,that ZFX stuff isn't cheap.I feel your pain in Canada,to bad about the NXT,I think I like the stuff and time will tell if it holds up to Zaino.I'm getting sick of mixing bottles and cleaning them out and either not mixing up enough or too much and when to Z1 and having to Z1 first,I guess I made my point.
One more thing about the mixing bottles.
there must have been a change to the Zaino formulation awhile back as I have found that the mxing bottles almost wash themselves. I take a few drops of Dawn and hot water...shake the bottle and it's clean.
You will find the ZFX does last a long time.
there must have been a change to the Zaino formulation awhile back as I have found that the mxing bottles almost wash themselves. I take a few drops of Dawn and hot water...shake the bottle and it's clean.
You will find the ZFX does last a long time.
Matt,
Make sure when you mix the ZFX/Z2 or Z5 to allow it to sit for a while to allow the ZFX to activate.
Also, 3 coats your first time will be tough. Make sure you charge your applicator with either Z6 or distilled water to help spread the Zaino a bit better and not soak so much up into the foam or cotton applicator.
If you get 2 coats, that's fine. Sal actually says it's fine to get 2 coats out of 1 once and that 3 coats might be taking it a bit too thin.
Check out this thread, it's show's the technique very well.
http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7346&highlight=Zaino+roof
Paco
Make sure when you mix the ZFX/Z2 or Z5 to allow it to sit for a while to allow the ZFX to activate.
Also, 3 coats your first time will be tough. Make sure you charge your applicator with either Z6 or distilled water to help spread the Zaino a bit better and not soak so much up into the foam or cotton applicator.
If you get 2 coats, that's fine. Sal actually says it's fine to get 2 coats out of 1 once and that 3 coats might be taking it a bit too thin.
Check out this thread, it's show's the technique very well.
http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7346&highlight=Zaino+roof
Paco
Newport Viper
New member
Our guys ( Viper Club) had lots of Zaino users in it. After they saw, hands on @ the detail day, what NXT did many switched to NXT full time. The dark colored cars really had a deeper look.
I know my yellow, which is a white yellow, really took to it. I just couldn't get that deep look with Zaino. ( it had a plastic? look to it)
Take Mike up on his offer of a bottle of #83. I had to pay the $20. Apply NXT with a DA. Buff off with an Ultimate Bonnett!
#83 + one coat. NXT!
I know my yellow, which is a white yellow, really took to it. I just couldn't get that deep look with Zaino. ( it had a plastic? look to it)
Take Mike up on his offer of a bottle of #83. I had to pay the $20. Apply NXT with a DA. Buff off with an Ultimate Bonnett!
#83 + one coat. NXT!
Newport, my Viper brother....how are ya?
I bought and tried NXT (as you suggested on another board) and thought it was outperformed by Meguiar's own Cleaner-Wax. (That I use on my car trailer)
I have yet to use the DACP, but did get some. After DACP, I would expect most waxes to look good. Much is in the prep.
NXT should shine, it's as much as 10% silicone. I don't want to get into the whole silicone debate again...but I am avoiding them. In fact, if I find out that DACP has silicones...that will got back too. A wax isn't going to adhere well to oil.
On two of my vehicles, the Viper and Cobra, I have no reason to use DACP or glazes...they have no swirls, and have never had anything but a claying and Zaino. They both look a mile deep.
One more thing Newport....look at the top of the page at my ole Bronco...that's just Zaino and 10 year old paint.
I bought and tried NXT (as you suggested on another board) and thought it was outperformed by Meguiar's own Cleaner-Wax. (That I use on my car trailer)
I have yet to use the DACP, but did get some. After DACP, I would expect most waxes to look good. Much is in the prep.
NXT should shine, it's as much as 10% silicone. I don't want to get into the whole silicone debate again...but I am avoiding them. In fact, if I find out that DACP has silicones...that will got back too. A wax isn't going to adhere well to oil.
On two of my vehicles, the Viper and Cobra, I have no reason to use DACP or glazes...they have no swirls, and have never had anything but a claying and Zaino. They both look a mile deep.
One more thing Newport....look at the top of the page at my ole Bronco...that's just Zaino and 10 year old paint.
Newport Viper
New member
NXT should shine, it's as much as 10% silicone.
I guess you spoke to Meguiars chemists?
Dude, are you trying to be least credible person on this board?
You come in hear, and quote numbers that you have no idea about.
Do Sal and Zaino a favor, talk about how well his products do work and look. You give the Zaino Zelots a real black eye..:nono
Heading to Vegas, peace out.........:argue
I guess you spoke to Meguiars chemists?
Dude, are you trying to be least credible person on this board?
You come in hear, and quote numbers that you have no idea about.
Do Sal and Zaino a favor, talk about how well his products do work and look. You give the Zaino Zelots a real black eye..:nono
Heading to Vegas, peace out.........:argue
imported_memnuts
New member
Yes, please leave Sal and Zaino out of your little game. Comments like the one you are writing only drives more people away from Zaino. This is a great product that has received a big rep because of zealots like yourself. :nono
Besides you are way off base about silicones or just plainly have no clue of this "family" of compounds.
What's your driving record? You sure have a hang-up about re-painting. :nixweiss
Besides you are way off base about silicones or just plainly have no clue of this "family" of compounds.
What's your driving record? You sure have a hang-up about re-painting. :nixweiss
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
Matt M said:
First of all, the MSD sheet says that the Polysiloxane in the NXT Tech Wax formula is somewhere between 2% and 10% of the product by weight, not by volume. So your statement while correct, could also be phrased, NXT contans as little as 2% Polysiloxane. But unless you mixed this formula yourself, you don't know if it's 2%, 3%, 4%, etc., up to potentially 10% by weight, not by volume.
Is there a difference between a product that has 2% or a product that has 10%? Probably not to a person avoiding products with silicone to start with.
Second of all, can someone explain why silicone is a bad thing?, (not you specifically Matt)
Why should people avoid using products that contain silicone on their car's finish? What is the exact problem?
Thanks,
Mike
DETAILKING
New member
I don't know.....if they had no adverse effects there wouldn't be entire product lines out there devoted to silicone free "BODY SHOP SAFE" products
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
DETAILKING said:
But DETAIKING, is everyone supposed to live their life like at any moment they're going to take their car to be painted?
Meguiar's makes a TON of silicone free products, in fact, Meguiar's has been making products without silicone probably longer than anyone....
Frank Meguiar Jr. took great pride in formulating products that did not cause surface adhesion problems for people in the refinishing industry. It wasn't until he passed away in 1951 that Meguiar's came out with a their first wax, #16 Professional Paste Wax, which is still around today, 53 years later.
Name a company today that has been around longer than Meguiar's that specializes in body shop safe, silicone and wax free products?
Professional body shops use wax and silicone free products to avoid contaminating their shops and potentially causing surface adhesion problems in their work. But after the car leaves the fresh paint environment, why does it matter?
For the owner of a car, (not a painter in a paint shop), why else is silicone bad for paint?
Mike
imported_memnuts
New member
DETAILKING said:
There are specific situations where silicone containing products are prohibited. I.E. Body Shop. I guess one can extend this prohibition to driveways, backyards and home garages if one desires for their personal vehicles but not necessary if re-painting is not a chronic issue.
Jesstzn
New member
I know this guy isn't popular here but some of his info is good and nonbiased.
To attempt to explain in great depth and scientific terms would take hours.
Here is the "basics" of this issue.
First, there are over 40,000 variations of "silicones".
For simplifcation, there are two main branches, one is silicone fluids and then there are silioxanes.
Silicone fluids (oils) such as dimethal silicone fluids will create fish eyes when attempting to paint over them, they "drift" around a body shop, since they are migritory and like to attach to surfaces.
IE, oily, greasy tire dressings use this silicone, it is also in products such as over the counter lubricants, etc.
Most of the siloxanes are not condsidered a dimethal fluid, but are for the most part amino functional compounds, which are non-migritory, and are anti-corrosive. Modern OEM 1K paints and clears use this component in their chemistry.
The "silicone" issue became a marketing issue thanks to 3M attempting to set it's polishes and compounds apart from the others. Yet, they have mislead everyone for years.
Look on their first good selling polishing material Finesse-it, the white polish, read the CAS#'s on the bottle and you may see, (depending on the age of the product) that it contains an acrylic emlusion or an acrylic polymer emulsion, etc, but no CAS # for it. The CAS# is an assigned component number for components by the goverment in order to address HazMat and enviormental/safety issues. The item mentioned has no CAS, since it is an emulsion of siloxanes and other acrlic polymer chains.
If you look closely on many of their labels, 3M, some say Paintable or BodyShop Safe, while others do not carry this information. Read the components list on the bottle and you will find either polydimethalsilicones or something like that.
A polydimethalsiloxane may or may not create the fish eye issue, depending on several factors that are too involved to go into here, but are usually considered a much higher grade and more effective component than the use of the much cheaper polydimethalsilicone emulsions.
Those that contain just dimethal silicones will often create many concerns on a vehicle, such as when used in a tire dressing, etc.
They are "short lived" and not anti-corrossive, give a short term shine and then evaporate away from the surface leaving no protection and breaking down any other protective components and carrying them away in the evaporation process.
The next step up the chain is polyaminosiloxanes and these are much better for use in protective sealants, but considerablely more expensive than the other lower members of the family.
To attempt to explain in great depth and scientific terms would take hours.
Here is the "basics" of this issue.
First, there are over 40,000 variations of "silicones".
For simplifcation, there are two main branches, one is silicone fluids and then there are silioxanes.
Silicone fluids (oils) such as dimethal silicone fluids will create fish eyes when attempting to paint over them, they "drift" around a body shop, since they are migritory and like to attach to surfaces.
IE, oily, greasy tire dressings use this silicone, it is also in products such as over the counter lubricants, etc.
Most of the siloxanes are not condsidered a dimethal fluid, but are for the most part amino functional compounds, which are non-migritory, and are anti-corrosive. Modern OEM 1K paints and clears use this component in their chemistry.
The "silicone" issue became a marketing issue thanks to 3M attempting to set it's polishes and compounds apart from the others. Yet, they have mislead everyone for years.
Look on their first good selling polishing material Finesse-it, the white polish, read the CAS#'s on the bottle and you may see, (depending on the age of the product) that it contains an acrylic emlusion or an acrylic polymer emulsion, etc, but no CAS # for it. The CAS# is an assigned component number for components by the goverment in order to address HazMat and enviormental/safety issues. The item mentioned has no CAS, since it is an emulsion of siloxanes and other acrlic polymer chains.
If you look closely on many of their labels, 3M, some say Paintable or BodyShop Safe, while others do not carry this information. Read the components list on the bottle and you will find either polydimethalsilicones or something like that.
A polydimethalsiloxane may or may not create the fish eye issue, depending on several factors that are too involved to go into here, but are usually considered a much higher grade and more effective component than the use of the much cheaper polydimethalsilicone emulsions.
Those that contain just dimethal silicones will often create many concerns on a vehicle, such as when used in a tire dressing, etc.
They are "short lived" and not anti-corrossive, give a short term shine and then evaporate away from the surface leaving no protection and breaking down any other protective components and carrying them away in the evaporation process.
The next step up the chain is polyaminosiloxanes and these are much better for use in protective sealants, but considerablely more expensive than the other lower members of the family.
imported_memnuts
New member
Thanks Jesstzn for digging up that reference.:bow :bow :bow
That is what I was implying with my statement about "family" of silicone products.
That is what I was implying with my statement about "family" of silicone products.
Mike P, I appreciate your candor. I do use many of Meguiars’ products.
Newport Viper…all I wrote was that NXT contains silicones, and now Mike from Meguiars’ explains the exact amount. Is this enough documentation for you? I will repeat that silicones are at least part of the shine in this NXT product…and that was my point. Obviously you did not take the time to look into this yourself. In fact, on another discussion board, you as much as guaranteed that NXT DID NOT contain silicones at all. How’s YOUR credibility? As far as my credibility goes, I’ll take my chances on the others here deciding my credibility for themselves. I gave the DACP “prepâ€� before the final wax step most of the credit for your shine, which is the truth. Prep is very important.
Blkz28conv, I merely mentioned that on my vehicles I have not had to get into all types of prep work, be it DACP, glazes, whatever. Just clay and Zaino. I simply posted that NXT contained silicones that were at least in part responsible for the shine. I bought NXT and did my own tests…I found other Meguiars’ products to be better.
Before someone quotes the well-known article about silicones…I have read it.
I have decided to avoid them when possible in my car care arsenal of products. The “chanceâ€� of having a problem in the future is enough for me. It’s surely not because of my driving record either, or completely because of paint adhesion problems. The next paragraph is just one that I have seen that discusses silicones…..
“Silicone is an unnatural, manmade product that functions as a hardener for many car care products. If the wax you are presently using on your vehicle contains silicone, you are adding a hardening agent to the finish each and every time you use that product.
Have you ever wondered why most car care and detailing products require you to apply them in the shade? The silicone in the product hardens in an accelerated fashion when exposed to sunlight or when applied to hot surfaces. In fact, silicone may harden so quickly that you may be unable to spread the wax over the surface fast enough! Can you remember a time when you could barely buff the wax off? Now you know why.
New vehicles leave the factory with a clear-coat finish that is able to both flex and breathe. Application of silicone-based products to your vehicle's finish destroys the ability of the clear-coat to flex and breathe with car movement and temperature variations. Over time this leads to paint cracking, dulling, and damage -- especially on the painted plastic parts of your vehicle.�
The above sentence was taken from another website, and are not “my words�. Whether you subscribe to this theory or not, I find the “chance� that things like this could be true, more of a chance than I care to take.
Finally, there are other products available as a final step that do not contain silicones, make a great shine and last much longer. Despite trying more products that I can remember, Zaino has been the best for me.
Newport Viper…all I wrote was that NXT contains silicones, and now Mike from Meguiars’ explains the exact amount. Is this enough documentation for you? I will repeat that silicones are at least part of the shine in this NXT product…and that was my point. Obviously you did not take the time to look into this yourself. In fact, on another discussion board, you as much as guaranteed that NXT DID NOT contain silicones at all. How’s YOUR credibility? As far as my credibility goes, I’ll take my chances on the others here deciding my credibility for themselves. I gave the DACP “prepâ€� before the final wax step most of the credit for your shine, which is the truth. Prep is very important.
Blkz28conv, I merely mentioned that on my vehicles I have not had to get into all types of prep work, be it DACP, glazes, whatever. Just clay and Zaino. I simply posted that NXT contained silicones that were at least in part responsible for the shine. I bought NXT and did my own tests…I found other Meguiars’ products to be better.
Before someone quotes the well-known article about silicones…I have read it.
I have decided to avoid them when possible in my car care arsenal of products. The “chanceâ€� of having a problem in the future is enough for me. It’s surely not because of my driving record either, or completely because of paint adhesion problems. The next paragraph is just one that I have seen that discusses silicones…..
“Silicone is an unnatural, manmade product that functions as a hardener for many car care products. If the wax you are presently using on your vehicle contains silicone, you are adding a hardening agent to the finish each and every time you use that product.
Have you ever wondered why most car care and detailing products require you to apply them in the shade? The silicone in the product hardens in an accelerated fashion when exposed to sunlight or when applied to hot surfaces. In fact, silicone may harden so quickly that you may be unable to spread the wax over the surface fast enough! Can you remember a time when you could barely buff the wax off? Now you know why.
New vehicles leave the factory with a clear-coat finish that is able to both flex and breathe. Application of silicone-based products to your vehicle's finish destroys the ability of the clear-coat to flex and breathe with car movement and temperature variations. Over time this leads to paint cracking, dulling, and damage -- especially on the painted plastic parts of your vehicle.�
The above sentence was taken from another website, and are not “my words�. Whether you subscribe to this theory or not, I find the “chance� that things like this could be true, more of a chance than I care to take.
Finally, there are other products available as a final step that do not contain silicones, make a great shine and last much longer. Despite trying more products that I can remember, Zaino has been the best for me.
TortoiseAWD
New member
Matt,
The source for your quote is this site, if I'm not mistaken: http://www.aiaproducts.com/articles/200003_silicone.html
As far as I can tell, that's just a marketing blurb meant to sell a product that they distribute. I don't know that I'd take what is essentially a self-serving piece of advertising as gospel . . .
But, use what you like. Live and let live, and all that.
All that said, now I'm gonna put on my moderator hat. This is a flame war waiting to happen, and I've got big ol' lock ready just in case. Everyone please stay civil?
Thanks,
Tort
The source for your quote is this site, if I'm not mistaken: http://www.aiaproducts.com/articles/200003_silicone.html
As far as I can tell, that's just a marketing blurb meant to sell a product that they distribute. I don't know that I'd take what is essentially a self-serving piece of advertising as gospel . . .
But, use what you like. Live and let live, and all that.
All that said, now I'm gonna put on my moderator hat. This is a flame war waiting to happen, and I've got big ol' lock ready just in case. Everyone please stay civil?
Thanks,
Tort
imported_memnuts
New member
Excellent response Mat and you have every right to educate or enlighten us about other concepts on different elements of detailing. This is what makes Autopia interesting. I chose to be a little less restrictive about grouping the whole silicone family into the "bad" catagory. Would I make my cars shine with AA, of course not. But I do not hesitate to apply a coat of Souveran, BF2, UPP, EX, EX-P,NXT, P21S, #16, etc to make them shine to my ever elevating satisfaction. :wavey
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
Silicones
I agree with TortoiseAWD that this is a big flame war just waiting to break out and the ammo for this war consists of merely opinions, speculation, and bad information….
I think there is a lot of confusion over silicones. I don't really know why, but there is definitely a lot of interest in this ingredient and a lot of confusion over it.
All the other bits and pieces of information I see posted about this ingredient is just too hard to substantiate unless your a real PHD chemist who specializes in automotive paint and car care products, and you have no bias or axe to grind. (You would need all three to have credibility).
That's just my opinion after reading probably a kazillion posts to the Internet over the last 10 years and conducting hundreds of how-to clinics for car clubs and at car shows.
People don't have good information on silicone and the default reaction is to assume the worst and that is silicone is bad.
I think the biggest concern people have is the potential for silicones to cause fish eyes in their paint, should they ever be involved in an accident or decide to get a new paint job.
Mike
I agree with TortoiseAWD that this is a big flame war just waiting to break out and the ammo for this war consists of merely opinions, speculation, and bad information….
I think there is a lot of confusion over silicones. I don't really know why, but there is definitely a lot of interest in this ingredient and a lot of confusion over it.
All the other bits and pieces of information I see posted about this ingredient is just too hard to substantiate unless your a real PHD chemist who specializes in automotive paint and car care products, and you have no bias or axe to grind. (You would need all three to have credibility).
That's just my opinion after reading probably a kazillion posts to the Internet over the last 10 years and conducting hundreds of how-to clinics for car clubs and at car shows.
People don't have good information on silicone and the default reaction is to assume the worst and that is silicone is bad.
I think the biggest concern people have is the potential for silicones to cause fish eyes in their paint, should they ever be involved in an accident or decide to get a new paint job.
Mike