Zaino vs NXT

Mike Phillips said:
Silicones







I think the biggest concern people have is the potential for silicones to cause fish eyes in their paint, should they ever be involved in an accident or decide to get a new paint job.



Mike
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That could be true...I bet a lot of people avoid it for this reason alone. Why take a chance.
 
A quality Paint Repair Shop can avoid any silicone of other fisheye producing elements by properly cleansing the to be painted surface. If the shop can not, find another shop that will stand behind their work. JMHO
 
DetailKing you're not saying you never let silicones near your car are you? You were the top promoter for Formula 2000 Tire Gel (with Trilicone) on this forum.

Any good quality body shop will take all the necessary steps to remove all traces of silicones before it gets near the refinishing stage.
 
Yes, I have used carnubas and products on my cars for testing that contain silicone, but I found most of them don't last 3 weeks never mind 3 months. Silicone oil is a fluid and has no durability....simple as that. The more oil in the product, the higher the shine. Because it is a fluid, it can leech into porous spots in the paint easily...it can also wash off or evaporate too. A functional silicone (amino-siloxane or Polydimethyl) (liquid glass, finish first,etc) forms a solid structure and offers more durabilty, with no leeching into pores in the paint. If you like the look and can live with the durability, then use it....simple as that. As with any product it is not for everyone...........



I'm not saying to be afraid of using these oils on your car, I am just making a point of how some manufacturers market the fact that their products contain "no harmful silicones" and are "body shop safe" but then offer other products with these silicones and claim they are no big deal. Silicone got a bad rap somehow, it may not be as serious as some people lead you to believe but it is definately not a myth. I suggest talking to a painter. As blkz28 said proper prep before painting is the key, but I think you will find in actuality these oils are difficult to remove completely when they leech into pores and cracks.



Tire gel does not contain silicone oil Trilicone is a trade name for the type of functional silicone polymer used in the system (my guess is that it is 3 different ones in a blend or just really good marketing). I don't look for marketing...I look for what works!!! 303 also contains a silicone polymer (water based) of some sort,not the raw oil like the old Armor-All used to have that made a goo-ey mess or Black Magic.



Hope this helps
 
I really wish someone could put he durability of car waxes on a firm scientific footing. Consumer Reports (non-profit and non-partial) used to publish car wax rankings based on how water beads from the surface. Mike Phillips has planted the idea many times that water beading is a misleading indicator of durability.



So, Mike, since you have access to a staff of Ph.D. chemists, why can't you publish something more substantive. Why don't you have your chemists use an electron microscope to study a layer of NXT and Zaino after N-car washes. Why not use Rutherford Backscattering, or thin film interference, or some other analytical technique.



There is just an enormous amount of unsubstantiated opinions and hype on this subject.
 
I don't think a scientific test would be of much value. People want to use what works on their cars, what shines, lasts, and stays clean.



There was a scientfic test done a few yrs ago in corvette fever magazine, using a gardener gloss meter for gloss and measuring water bead height for durability (water repellency). Interesting reading, but it didn't contain many of the popular formulations we like to use today. It was back from an issue in the late 80's early 90's (can't remember). Here it is if you care to read about their testing process.



http://fototime.com/5FAFD7EF208C51B/orig.jpg



I think water beading is ONE good indication.....or more accurately, how the water beading changes. Remember new (healthy) paint beads water like mad........
 
That's a great idea Alan, but our chemists already don't like me asking questions and for the most part tell me that Meguiar's formula's are proprietary information and there is no reason to share Meguiar’s information with anyone else.



Their point is, try the product for yourself.



I agree on the hype statement. Car wax is only a microscopically thin sacrificial layer of protection. There is only so much it can do to protect your car's finish.



The best idea I know of to protect your car's finish is to wash or quick detail often to keep dirt and other contaminants off your finish and thus to prevent them from building up on the surface.



Then, after getting your car clean, the next best thing you can do is to polish with a non-abrasive product that maintains a clear, glossy finish and if you so choose, apply a coating of a protective wax, or other paint protectant type product.



Whether or not the paint protectant product contains silicone or not I guess everyone will have to make up their own mind whether or not that's a good, or a bad thing.



Meguiar's has always been in the business of making products for professionals in the refinishing industry --> since 1901, that's a long time to understand and create products for the OEM and the Refinishing industry.



But when it comes to the consumer world and the detailing industry, these two segments of the population are not applying fresh paint, so surface adhesion is no longer an issue. Both of these segments are usually looking for a product that makes the paint look good and lasts a long time.



When contamination does become an issue, any professional shop understands that for the most part the majority of the cars that come into the shop on a daily basis have had some type of product applied to the finish that can cause surface adhesion problems. Thus, they perform the necessary preparation steps.



The problem with surface adhesion issues isn't just silicone, it can be anything that causes contamination or high surface tension. If a product forces water to bead up, wouldn't that same product force paint to try to get away from the surface?



The reason water beads up is because high surface tension causes the water to try to get away from the surface, thus it piles upwards, upon itself.



Just for the sake of discussion, it would be interesting to see what other types of ingredients found in popular car care products, cause surface adhesion problems... even if they don't contain any harmful silicones?



I mean if the whole issue boils down to having faith that if sometime in the future you may want to re-paint your car, or if your car is involved in an accident, and your car will need come body work and new paint. Then it would seem that you would want to make sure that whoever's product you're using, it isn't going to cause any surface adhesion problems. From that point of view, it would be nice to know which ingredients, besides silicone, cause fish eyes? Especially if the ingredient bonded very tightly to the finish, i.e. if it was a very durable ingredient?



I'm sure wax, both natural and synthetic could be possible contaminants from a refinishing point of view, any other ideas?



Mike
 
It's a major problem for bodyshops but really I think that most quality shops are able to deal with surface contamination. I recall a top quality shop spending a fortune to find out where they were getting fisheye problems from. They had an apprentice prep person and he unfortunately liked wet sanding with the hand soap rather than clear water or the usual cleaner.

Something so simple as the hand soap caused thousands of dollars to be lost in extra work and new filters etc.

Really if the paint shop is a top quality facility they will know how to cleanse any car entering the paint area.
 
Jesstzn said:
I know this guy isn't popular here but some of his info is good and nonbiased.



To attempt to explain in great depth and scientific terms would take hours.



Here is the "basics" of this issue.



First, there are over 40,000 variations of "silicones".



For simplifcation, there are two main branches, one is silicone fluids and then there are silioxanes.



Silicone fluids (oils) such as dimethal silicone fluids will create fish eyes when attempting to paint over them, they "drift" around a body shop, since they are migritory and like to attach to surfaces.

IE, oily, greasy tire dressings use this silicone, it is also in products such as over the counter lubricants, etc.



Most of the siloxanes are not condsidered a dimethal fluid, but are for the most part amino functional compounds, which are non-migritory, and are anti-corrosive. Modern OEM 1K paints and clears use this component in their chemistry.



The "silicone" issue became a marketing issue thanks to 3M attempting to set it's polishes and compounds apart from the others. Yet, they have mislead everyone for years.



Look on their first good selling polishing material Finesse-it, the white polish, read the CAS#'s on the bottle and you may see, (depending on the age of the product) that it contains an acrylic emlusion or an acrylic polymer emulsion, etc, but no CAS # for it. The CAS# is an assigned component number for components by the goverment in order to address HazMat and enviormental/safety issues. The item mentioned has no CAS, since it is an emulsion of siloxanes and other acrlic polymer chains.



If you look closely on many of their labels, 3M, some say Paintable or BodyShop Safe, while others do not carry this information. Read the components list on the bottle and you will find either polydimethalsilicones or something like that.



A polydimethalsiloxane may or may not create the fish eye issue, depending on several factors that are too involved to go into here, but are usually considered a much higher grade and more effective component than the use of the much cheaper polydimethalsilicone emulsions.



Those that contain just dimethal silicones will often create many concerns on a vehicle, such as when used in a tire dressing, etc.



They are "short lived" and not anti-corrossive, give a short term shine and then evaporate away from the surface leaving no protection and breaking down any other protective components and carrying them away in the evaporation process.



The next step up the chain is polyaminosiloxanes and these are much better for use in protective sealants, but considerablely more expensive than the other lower members of the family.
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Very interesting.

According to http://www.ttatwest.de/liqgl/Liquid-Glas.rtf translated by Babelfish, Liquid Glass is polyaminosiloxane:



Contents materials: Polyaminosiloxane, mild abrasives, aliphatic petroleum solutions. No wax



Edit: The liquid glass website says that LG has no abrasives. Either a) one is wrong b) the formula has changed c) the particles present are smaller than the size specified in the accepted definition of "abrasive".



I wonder what the other popular sealants are made of, mostly.

Klasse and Zaino are both "acrylic", right?

Blackfire (and others?) are polymers of "amino functional silicones", right? Is it also polyaminosiloxane?

Is anyone willing to correct and extend this list?



I'm not an industrial spy. I'm a curious beginner, about to start on my new white Toyota Tundra, my first new vehicle. Above all, I'm looking for resistance to birdstuff, bugstuff, sap, and etc. Some on this forum have opined that nothing will protect against these things. But that can't be true. Line-X, an epoxy urethane (I think), can do it!
 
scout said:


I wonder what the other popular sealants are made of, mostly.

Klasse and Zaino are both "acrylic", right?
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Thanks for bringing up a post such as this for your first post.



Zaino is not acrylic.
 
I think it is very odd, if true, that Klasse is the only "acrylic" among these (most popular) products. Further, its properties are too similar to some others.

P.S. "Acrylic" *is* a polymer.
 
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