To Foam or Not to Foam???

I almost care enough to figure out the dilution I'm running...~6 oz/gallon, highest or next-to-highest gun setting :think: Used seven quarts of mix washing the Tahoe yesterday. That *is* a bit of shampoo, but hey...still cheaper than running through the swirl-matic.



Dan said:
..Everyone that sells foaming products (soaps and guns) has a lot to gain from pushing their stuff. It's bunk, and I'm glad to call them out on it.



I trust you're not lumping *my* approach to foaming in with the "bunk", right? ;)
 
Speaking of dilution ratios, it is always hard to determine how much product to put in a foam gun, how much water to dilute it with and what setting the gun itself should be set at. I use CG Clear shampoo and it seems CG's shampoos are often used by autopians in their guns and cannons because they foam very well. The problem with using Clear is that if you don't dilute it properly you risk stripping your LSP (although that is almost always a bigger risk when washing by bucket).



I found this recently during a search at an other forum and the writer took some time to explain it for all to understand. For his examples he used some popular foam shampoos such as DP and CG washes and the very popular Gilmour gun. It is worth the time to read for anyone who struggles with these ratios and settings:



"Since Gemini suggested that we have a thread dedicated to foam gun ratios, I figured I'd volunteer my time for it (hey I'm on summer break and I love helping everyone at DB). However, I'll only be offering what I know for my Gilmour Foamaster II #95QGFMR.



The particular Gilmour model I have has a multi-ratio dial with 5 mixing head settings. All these settings/specifications can be seen at the Gilmour website for your own personal reference.



The most common used setting, at least for me anyways, has always been the C setting with an output volume of 4 oz./gal. In most cases car wash shampoos suggest having 1 oz of car wash shampoo added for every gallon of water. Initially you might ask, why not just keep it simple and use the A setting where its output volume is 1 oz./gal? The answer is the foam gun is not capable of sucking such a viscous liquid through its siphon tube. Now I can not attest to whether this is true or not but I don't dare try it myself. However, there is the exception with some of those cheaper car wash shampoos in which they are pretty watery (and probably not great car wash shampoos altogether).



There's also the B setting (2 oz./gal.) which can be used as well but just remember that your shampoo mixture may still be too viscous for the foam gun to handle. One nice thing about the B setting though is that you will not be required to refill as often as you would as the C, D, or E settings.



Since I mentioned the D and E settings, I will say that these settings are definitely not ideal. Their output flow, 6 oz./gal. and 12 oz./gal. respectively, is just too fast and will require a lot of refilling! For me, these are simply not an option almost all the time but perhaps maybe it is for others. I won't even bother with the E setting as it's just not practical for me but I will mention the one occasion in which the D setting is actually useful later. Anyway, on to the hard numbers!



We'll start with the most common dilution, 1 oz of car wash shampoo to 1 gallon of water. The 95GQFMR is a quart container which is the equivalent of 32 oz. At the C setting, we have an output flow of 4 oz./gal. Now in essence, we want 1 oz of that 4 oz./gal. flow to be car wash shampoo and in order to achieve that, we must have a 3:1 ratio in the 95GFQFMR container. So how do you do that? It's pretty simple. You add 8 oz of car wash shampoo and 24 oz of water so that your ratio comes out to 3:1. So what if you want to use the B setting? Sure, that can be done. Your ratio will then effectively be 2:2 or 1:1 and you will be adding 16 oz of car wash shampoo and 16 oz of water. The only concern with using the B setting is whether or not your mixed solution will be soluble enough to be sucked up through the siphon tube and provide the proper volume output. Of course as I mentioned before, the B setting will require less refilling than using the C setting which is nice.



Ok, so what about car wash shampoos such as Chemical Guys Citrus Wash & Gloss? Well, they have 2 different dilutions for separate applications. There is one dilution that is ideal for the weekly wash in which 1/2 oz of CWG is required for every 2 gallons of water or 1/4 oz of CWG for every gallon of water. There's also the paint cleanser dilution which is 2 oz of CWG for every gallon of water.



In order to achieve the proper dilution for CWG as a weekly wash, we need 1/4 oz of car wash shampoo for every gallon of water. Now this gets a little tricky with the 95QGFMR and I may lose you in its translation. Since our previous dilutions have been 1 oz of car wash shampoo to 1 gallon of water, we need to figure out what setting we'll be using before we dive further into the numbers.



If we want to go with the most common C setting, the short answer is we divide by 4. Now if we divide our original 8 oz of car wash shampoo by 4, that gives us 2 oz of car wash shampoo and leaves us with the remaining 30 oz of the 95QGFMR to be filled with water. To fully understand how this calculates out, we have to remember that at the C setting we are outputting at a rate of 4 oz./gal and we want 1/4 oz./gal. If you think about it, 2 oz of car wash shampoo to 30 oz of water is simply 30:2 or 15:1. However, we are still at a ratio to 1 and what we really want is to 1/4 or .25 in order to understand the numbers in a simpler form. To keep it fairly simple, we divide both sides of the ratio (15:1) by 4 which gives us 3.75:.25. Well what do you know, these two numbers add up to a total of 4, meaning 4 oz, which also meets our requirement of 4 oz./gal. output flow.



So what if you want to use the B setting? It's pretty simple. Just use 4 oz of CWG and 28 oz of water, with the ratios working out as follows (keep in mind these are all equivalents): 28:4 -> 14:2 -> 7:1 -> 3.5:.5. -> 1.75:.25.



Okay, now that's out of the way. What if you want to use it as a paintwork cleanser? So it's 2 oz of car wash shampoo to 1 gallon of water. Ok, simple enough but it's doubtful that you'll be using the B setting for this one. Essentially if you do decide to use the B setting you'll have to fill the entire container with solid CWG, non-diluted. As I mentioned before, the 95GQFMR will not be likely to successfully suck this viscous liquid through it's siphon tube. So C setting it is and it's simple. You need 2 oz of car wash shampoo for every gallon of water and at the C setting we have an output flow of 4 oz./gal. Essentially, we just need a 1:1 ratio here, 16 oz of CWG and 16 oz of water. Now if that mixture may be too viscous still (I haven't tried it myself yet), this would probably be the only occasion in which the D setting would be feasible, IMO. At the D setting we have an output flow of 6 oz./gal. which would mean that in order to achieve a 2 oz of car wash shampoo for every gallon of water, we'd need a 2:1 ratio, which roughly comes out to 11 oz of CWG and 21 oz of water (the ratio isn't exactly 2:1).



Ok so that was a lot of reading (if some of you actually read it all) but below you will find the short and sweet version for your reference. I'll continue to add to it if need be. I hope my English was structured well enough to understand, LoL. Either way, I hope it helps out some of the fellow foam gun users who are still new to its dilution ratios or just need some refreshing of their memory. Enjoy!



Gilmour Foamaster II #95GQFMR

Any car wash soap at 1 oz per gallon of water

C setting - 8 oz of any car wash soap + 24 oz of water

B setting - 16 oz of any car wash soap + 16 oz of water



Chemical Guys Citrus Wash & Gloss at 1/4 oz per gallon of water (weekly wash), also applies to Citrus Wash & Clear and Maxi Suds II

C setting - 2 oz of CWG/CWC/MSII + 30 oz of water

B setting - 4 oz of CWG/CWC/MSII + 28 oz of water



Chemical Guys Citrus Wash & Gloss at 2 oz per gallon of water (paintwork cleanser)

C setting - 16 oz of CWG + 16 oz of water

D setting - 11 oz CWG + 21 oz of water



Detailer's Pride Xtreme Foam at .4 oz per gallon of water

C setting - 3.2 oz of DPXF + 28.8 oz of water

B setting - 6.4 oz of DPXF + 25.6 oz of water



Detailer's Pride Xtreme Foam at .5 oz per gallon of water (for simplicity and/or rounder numbers)

C setting - 4 oz of DPXF + 28 oz of water

B setting - 8 oz of DPXF + 24 oz of water"
 
I wonder....are most foamgun users adding shampoo to the gun's container or mixing up gallons of "concentrate" and filling the container from that?



I myself use four containers per foamgun, which I fill with the concentrate before I start so I can merely swap containers.
 
Dan said:
Opinion? If you mean personal experience using pressure washers for decades, then I guess so. It is also simple physics.



Who foams themselves up before they shower? Do you foam your car before driving in the rain? I can assure you a lot more dirt and crap are pelted at your car while driving.



Everyone that sells foaming products (soaps and guns) has a lot to gain from pushing their stuff. It's bunk, and I'm glad to call them out on it.



Dan said:
Do you have proof that your chemicals and a hose remove more abrasive particles than a pressure washer using plain water?



Until then...



Hope you sell lots of foam to suckers! BTW, do you ever actually wash cars or do you just spend time in the lab?



Two guys give their opinion..why such belligerent replies? Talk about having a chip on your shoulder.
 
I don't know about the CG product, but when recently I worked on a new car that had lots of mud and dirt buildup, so much so that straight pressure washer didn't do anything, I first foamed the car with dawn. After several minutes, I rinsed it off without removing any additional dirt. Next I soaked the car with an APC 4:1- that worked a lot better. However that car was really hammered. I not only pre foam before a detail, I also foam the car again as I wash it, panel by panel. You can never be too careful.



pwaug said:
How about something like Chemical Guys Citrus Wash which is very popular for stripping wax/sealants?? Is that any more effective than Dawn?
 
Accumulator said:
I almost care enough to figure out the dilution I'm running...~6 oz/gallon, highest or next-to-highest gun setting :think: Used seven quarts of mix washing the Tahoe yesterday. That *is* a bit of shampoo, but hey...still cheaper than running through the swirl-matic.







I trust you're not lumping *my* approach to foaming in with the "bunk", right? ;)



I guess its not coming through, I am not saying that foaming doesn't help in certain cases.



All I'm saying is between the two, a powerwasher is much more effective at removing abrasive particles from the surface of a car than a foamer and a standard pressure hose.



Legacy99 said:
Two guys give their opinion..why such belligerent replies? Talk about having a chip on your shoulder.



Because I feel ripped off after buying two different foamers. I feel bad for dumping so much soap into storm drains. I'm tired of people that push foaming as the answer to marring when there is a better alternative.



Guitarist302008 said:
it's a matter of someone taking offense when he can't handle proof.... and it is my OPINION dan.



What proof? The OPINION of a guy that stands to gain $$$ from selling foam?



Tell you what, Guitarist302008 is too long to write with a pressure washer, but give me your real name, I'll foam the hood of a car, rinse it off, then spell your name out in the remaining dirt with my pressure washer. I'll video the whole thing. How's that for proof?
 
Are we talking about a foamer or a foam lance?



Dan said:
I guess its not coming through, I am not saying that foaming doesn't help in certain cases.



All I'm saying is between the two, a powerwasher is much more effective at removing abrasive particles from the surface of a car than a foamer and a standard pressure hose.







Because I feel ripped off after buying two different foamers. I feel bad for dumping so much soap into storm drains. I'm tired of people that push foaming as the answer to marring when there is a better alternative.







What proof? The OPINION of a guy that stands to gain $$$ from selling foam?



Tell you what, Guitarist302008 is too long to write with a pressure washer, but give me your real name, I'll foam the hood of a car, rinse it off, then spell your name out in the remaining dirt with my pressure washer. I'll video the whole thing. How's that for proof?
 
I don't know if foaming helps a whole bunch or not because I am not very experienced using it (only a few times). I can see where it could make washing easier by not having to scrub so hard, albeit an extra step because I take a bucket wash to the car afterwards anyway. I like the way it looks - pretty cool actually, using CG Clear which foams up nicely. It gives me the impression that it is truly doing something important, whether it really is or not. I guess more than anything else it is just another toy to me because I got along fine for many, many years washing cars the old way without foam. Do I consider it a panacea for keeping cars clean? No, but I'll use it now and then when I have nothing better to do - it certainly can't hurt.
 
Thomas Dekany said:
Are we talking about a foamer or a foam lance?



Either. I'm just stating that on cars washed on a regular basis, using a pressure washer with plain water and an intense stream is:



-more effective at removing abrasive particles

-faster

-more environmentally friendly (less water, less chemical runoff)

-cheaper



when compared to using a foaming/pre-soak method and then rinsing with a mild stream of water.



I will gladly concede foaming AND pressure washing is more effective than pressure washing alone, however it comes with the costs mentioned above (time, money and environmental impacts). Wether those costs are worth the marginal improvement foaming add, is your decision.
 
I'm just looking for super fast and effective drying equipment, coupled with that, you'd have a winner; best of both worlds.
 
if doing paint correction, the car gets washed with dawn, thats it. I used to foam, but dont see a benefit. If I instill marring while washing, I am going to correct it anyway, and since the damage already done prior to me receiving the car is much deeper than anything that I instill, there is no point to a hour long wash to "not" induce marring. Its a waste of time and product and effort. 10 min, DONE and onto the paint prep consisting of claying, drying, taping, alcohol wipedown.



Regular washing...I think its a waste to try and keep a DD 100% swirl free. I know someone who takes 3 hours to wash his car every 5-7 days...JUST WASH!!! In the span of 6 months, thats about 75 hours spent washing his car, TWO weeks full time work! I'd rather do something else with my time and just polish the car in 5 hours every 6 months to keep it looking better than 95% of the cars on the road. 1 hour wash 25 times + 5 hour detail = 30 hours total...and less money spent, more money made, more memories had with friends and family!



Thats just my take on things...



oh yeah, a PW is better :P
 
Bill D said:
I'm just looking for super fast and effective drying equipment, coupled with that, you'd have a winner; best of both worlds.



22PLE coating, water sheeting method, air compressor followed by a QD wipedown/dry = 10 min to dry completely on a M3
 
Dan said:
I guess its not coming through, I am not saying that foaming doesn't help in certain cases.



All I'm saying is between the two, a powerwasher is much more effective at removing abrasive particles from the surface of a car than a foamer and a standard pressure hose....



Eh, my bad :o You're coming through nice and clear, I was just, uhm....being me and stuff got lost in the stressful tenor of the thread. NO worries...we're not having one of our :argue this time :D



You know I'd be using a pressure washer if I could incorporate it into my current shop ;)



And I do wonder how much my boosted water pressure brings to the table, that might be part of why the Foamaster is so effective for me.



I feel bad for dumping so much soap into storm drains...



Ya know, that never occurred to me! Runoff is something I have all sorted out but I bet plenty of people *do* let it go into storm drains, or soak into their yard, or somesuch :think: :nono



toyotaguy said:
..Regular washing...I think its a waste to try and keep a DD 100% swirl free.



Eh, to each their own. I hardly spend *any* more time keeping it marring free. That part of the wash isn't what takes me so many hours. It might take half an hour more, tops...probably not even that much.



And just FWIW, I too think that if this detailing stuff takes somebody away from "real life endeavors" they might oughta rethink their priorities.



Hey....Ya know, heh heh, maybe I oughta read more carefully! You said "100% marring free" and, well...if a car gets used in the real world I can't imagine it staying truly perfect. I mean...sheesh, my S8 is as pampered as anything could be and sure, somebody could find flaws if they spend enough time/effort.
 
Dan said:
I guess its not coming through, I am not saying that foaming doesn't help in certain cases.



All I'm saying is between the two, a powerwasher is much more effective at removing abrasive particles from the surface of a car than a foamer and a standard pressure hose.







Because I feel ripped off after buying two different foamers. I feel bad for dumping so much soap into storm drains. I'm tired of people that push foaming as the answer to marring when there is a better alternative.







What proof? The OPINION of a guy that stands to gain $$$ from selling foam?



Tell you what, Guitarist302008 is too long to write with a pressure washer, but give me your real name, I'll foam the hood of a car, rinse it off, then spell your name out in the remaining dirt with my pressure washer. I'll video the whole thing. How's that for proof?



I'm not going to sit here and waste my time typing out some long response to someone who already thinks he knows everything there is to know. I could really care less what you think your proof is. The guy may sell foam guns, but the truth is he made good points... points that you had no real answer to except to resort to just accusing him of trying to sell something. How about this instead... you do things your own perfect way (in your opinion) and the rest of us will keep doing what we do. I foam my cars, I have no marring... thank you.
 
Guitarist302008 said:
I'm not going to sit here and waste my time typing out some long response to someone who already thinks he knows everything there is to know. I could really care less what you think your proof is. The guy may sell foam guns, but the truth is he made good points... points that you had no real answer to except to resort to just accusing him of trying to sell something. How about this instead... you do things your own perfect way (in your opinion) and the rest of us will keep doing what we do. I foam my cars, I have no marring... thank you.



Lol, I think you are a whole lot more emotionally wrapped up in this then what you accuse me of. Reading heavily into the sales speak (zero hard facts) I think you missed the part where Pipuk conceded that most of the abrasive material is washed away with water, leaving only the oil film. Something I have been preaching for years:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/132116-how-stop-marring-my-paint-2.html#post1404885



If you are offended by what I posted, I'm sorry, I wasn't out to offend, I'm just out to end the hype.
 
215Detailing said:
Slight comparison Shaving cream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I think the dirt would be suspended in the suds away from the paint pretty much as shaving foam lifts beard/hair away from skin for a closer/safer shave. most shampoo for auto are now Biodegradable/eco friendly.





I agree with the shaving cream analogy. I haven't used my foam gun yet, but I

saw a video for a 'Sunday' car wash on ammonyc.com. This video demonstrated

foam that did not stick to the vehicle, but basically encapsulated the dirt and ran off

the vehicle. Sorry I was not successful providing a link. I think it's worth googling

and checking out. Just my 2 cents!
 
Lexi65 said:
.. I saw a video for a 'Sunday' car wash on ammonyc.com. This video demonstrated foam that did not stick to the vehicle, but basically encapsulated the dirt and ran off

the vehicle...



That reminds me of my "dislodge and flush" approach to this stuff. I do find that I need to add some mechanical agitation (i.e., my Boar's Hair Brush) to get the dirt to break loose from the paint, but yeah....same general idea I think; get the dirt to run off the car rather than transferring the dirt to the wash medium.



Oh, hey, Welcome to Autopia!
 
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