To Foam or Not to Foam???

Guitarist302008 said:
so no one here feels that using high pressure is more likely to marr the finish than using a mild pressure with soap to slicken the finish so that the grit may not marr the finish as much?



In theory the spot you first hit may. But if you start spraying away from the car there is no issue. All dirt is quickly flooded away.



Marring occurs from dragging dirt around with wash media. Not from water pressure.
 
Guitarist302008 said:
so no one here feels that using high pressure is more likely to marr the finish than using a mild pressure with soap to slicken the finish so that the grit may not marr the finish as much?



What you have described is pretty much the method used here in the UK. The important thing to remember is that the soiling released here is non-bonded and as soon as it is hit, it will be fired away from the surface and will do no damage. Certainly this is not something which has been considered as important, inspite of it being used as routine with us.
 
Guitarist302008 said:
so no one here feels that using high pressure is more likely to marr the finish than using a mild pressure with soap to slicken the finish so that the grit may not marr the finish as much?



I know of no such assumption be explained as being true or documented to be true. You'd have to have so much pressure blasting at thick mud to make this happen. And if you're using that much pressure, you're gonna hurt more than just your paint.
 
Bill D said:
I do along the lines of 2 above. Its clean down here in Florida so just a good foam down does the trick. I'm not so lucky about the not having to dry part though.

Bill - you ever notice that foaming your car down there reduces the lifespan of your protectant? You're basically letting a cleaning detergent soak on your finish and it's power has got to be magnified if you're doing it while in the sun or when your finish is warm.



I like to believe that foaming a car will loosen up the oil based film and not the topical abrasive dirt. That's basically what car washes rely on dwell time of cleaners for.
 
PiPUK said:
What you have described is pretty much the method used here in the UK. The important thing to remember is that the soiling released here is non-bonded and as soon as it is hit, it will be fired away from the surface and will do no damage. Certainly this is not something which has been considered as important, inspite of it being used as routine with us.



David Fermani said:
I know of no such assumption be explained as being true or documented to be true. You'd have to have so much pressure blasting at thick mud to make this happen. And if you're using that much pressure, you're gonna hurt more than just your paint.



I always thought this before I ever learned anything about detailing. Before I learned anything about paint and what it took to keep the car looking nice. I would go to the DIY car washed and would not want to hose the car down a whole lot because I thought I was just blasting the dirt down onto the paint haha. You know right before I would grab that nasty @$$ foaming brush and scrub down :faint2:. Now I use the pressure washer (my own) just to cut time and I don't think anything about it. I have never seen just rinsing or foaming and then rinsing clean the paint. To do this you have to run the mitt over it and go two bucket method. So if this is true the pressure washer is just rinsing the loose dirty off, it would seem that it is just getting blasted off riding along the other dirt that is a little more stuck to the paint.
 
David Fermani said:
Bill - you ever notice that foaming your car down there reduces the lifespan of your protectant? You're basically letting a cleaning detergent soak on your finish and it's power has got to be magnified if you're doing it while in the sun or when your finish is warm.



I like to believe that foaming a car will loosen up the oil based film and not the topical abrasive dirt. That's basically what car washes rely on dwell time of cleaners for.





David,



Yeah, good point. All my washes take place in the garage but nevertheless, what you say can happen. I don't let things soak awfully long and I monitor ( best I can, if beading is any true indication) to see if my LSP is fading. I have to scratch the itch and reapply for the sake of it any way before that happens.



Then it's a monster marathon, super involved wash, clay, everything short of the ABC process most of the time, and then reapply the LSP. As a matter of fact, I'm probably going to go ahead with all of this, this month. All on a errand running car that still has short of 6K miles on it. :o :D
 
With my question about the pressure washing marring the paint (potentially) that I don't use the "snow foam" type method. I use the water and soap method where the foam doesn't just stick to the car itself.
 
Some sorta-random thoughts follow:



Shut-off valves- there are "high-flow" ones with larger interior passages and "regular ones" that flow less water. I use H-F ones on the foamgun and regular on my rinse hose.



Foam and LSPs- My "foam" for the pre-soak is pretty watery compared to the shaving-foam kind, but I mix my shampoo (and choose the settings) kinda strong. My GG shampoo foam can pretty much sit on Collinite and FK1000P forever without compromising the durability, but some of my other LSPs are much more delicate (and yeah...I bet I'll eventually phase those out).



Presoaking- While regulars here know I usually discount the value of presoaking with foam, I *do* believe it helps loosen the bonded contaminants and that it helps get that big abrasive stuff off. Yeah, I can see it working on oily roadfilm-type dirt too, but that's the stuff I use *more* mechanical agitation for; I try to gently "knock loose" the big stuff that is most responsible for marring, but I have to do some "scrubbing" to get the oily film off.
 
Guitarist302008 said:
With my question about the pressure washing marring the paint (potentially) that I don't use the "snow foam" type method. I use the water and soap method where the foam doesn't just stick to the car itself.



You don't need to use any soap method. A simple pressure washer rinse is all you need before you start washing.
 
I am super impressed with the Foam master II. I used it this afternoon and it made all sorts of foam. I mixed 1/3 water, 1/3 Dawn and 1/3 Megs APC. The second time I added a little Adam's Car Shampoo and got even more foam.
 
foam_zps8474f368.jpg
 
David Fermani said:
Bill - you ever notice that foaming your car down there reduces the lifespan of your protectant? You're basically letting a cleaning detergent soak on your finish and it's power has got to be magnified if you're doing it while in the sun or when your finish is warm.



I like to believe that foaming a car will loosen up the oil based film and not the topical abrasive dirt. That's basically what car washes rely on dwell time of cleaners for.



One must remember the relative strength of the chemicals. I don't know the strength that you guys use snowfoams at but, for us, it is is routinely diluted 100-200:1. That means that, assuming the products are 100% active, the theoretical strength of the product on the surface is 0.5-1%. In practice, the products are rarely more than 30% active and that means you are talking about a theoretical maximum more like 0.15-0.3%. Taking this one step further, the fact that the product is a foam means that there is also an air dilution in addition to the water dilution. Because the product is produced in a foam, the area over which it is applied is not the parameter you need because it is not supplied in a thin layer, rather a foam with a thickness which cannot be approximated in the same manner as a simple liquid application. So you now have a foam thickness of perhaps as much as 10s of millimeters versus a straight liquid application where it is perhaps a fraction of a millimeter. As such you could easily have an effective dilution 5-10 times higher again. You could easily end up with a chemical strength, on the surface, which could be lower than 0.05% (that is 1 part in 2000 or equivalent to ~99.95% water). Realistically, this is really tiny and, in my view, this is one of the main reasons why foaming almost never produces a touchless wash.



Compare to prewashing (as we would describe it in the UK), you often take a product and dilute it 20:1 with water and spray onto the surface with a non-foaming spray. Taking the same 30% product strength and considering it is a liquid sheet, not a thick foam, you could be talking about 1.5% product strength which could be up to 100x stronger than some of the snowfoams when applied to the above calculations. Contrasting the two methods, the prewash is clearly going to be massively more effective. More than that, because of the relative strengths, if the prewash is wax/LSP safe, an extrapolation on the dwell time to a foam means that the snowfoam would probably be wax safe even at really massively long dwell times.
 
I use the Gilmour FMII at every wash. It's fair to say it is my most used detailing tool.



I discharge 1/2 oz of soap with the Gilmour per car. I have my wash bucket mixed with the same wash product, typically 1/2 oz of soap per gallon of water in the bucket. I attempt to minimize the amount of soap applied and dwell time in an effort to protect the LSP.
 
Guitarist302008 said:
well, it's all based on opinion here... that's why we're all stating what we do.



Opinion? If you mean personal experience using pressure washers for decades, then I guess so. It is also simple physics.



Who foams themselves up before they shower? Do you foam your car before driving in the rain? I can assure you a lot more dirt and crap are pelted at your car while driving.



Everyone that sells foaming products (soaps and guns) has a lot to gain from pushing their stuff. It's bunk, and I'm glad to call them out on it.
 
Dan said:
It is also simple physics.

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It's bunk, and I'm glad to call them out on it.



It is not bunk and it is simple chemistry.



Check my posts here and elsewhere and you will see that I am biased because I am a formulator/manufacturer. However I also have the insight provided by a scientific background and a specific expertise in cleaning chemistry. There is one over-riding principle which underlies aqueous cleaning system. That principle is wetting. In order for a soil to be removed by an aqueous system, it needs to be wetted so that it may be incorporated into the wash solution. If you fail to do this, you need additional assistance, most commonly (in this scenario) mechanical assistance by way of a sponge/mitt/other wash media.



So to focus on wetting. How does one wet an un-specified soil? Well there are different types of soils. For example, you have dry particulate soils which are relatively easily wet or can be wet with small amounts of the appropriate surfactant. Then there are oily soils which repel water and are extremely hard to wet, even with the correct surfactants. Most loose soiling generally could be described with the first generalisation and this can be easily removed with water or moderate pressure washing. Unfortunately this does not provide a touchless wash because we have traffic films which are inherently oily and are relatively immune to water in isolation and are all but impossible to 'wet' fully. There are then several things one can attempt to do to improve this. The most gentle is appropriate surfactants and solvents to bridge between hydrophobic oily soils and the bulk aqueous medium. This is a time dependent reaction, it takes time for the surfactants to surround the oily molecules and to liberate them from the surface to which they are bonded. Heavier duty cleaners will use high alkalinity as an addition. This will chemically react with the oily film and actually convert it to a soap (remember your high school chemistry lessons about 'saponification'). So not only is the film dissolved but you form a surfactant which further enhances the wetting of remaining soils. Again, this is a time dependent process.



So there you have the fundamental of what is going on. Both of the highlighted mechanisms are time dependent. The longer the process carries on, assuming adequate chemical for the 'reactions' to proceed, the more effectively the soils will be wetted and the more completely they will be able to be removed with a pressurised water rinse. So now it should be obvious that there is a very simple method to enhance the cleaning process without the need for increasing the strength of the basic wash solution - dwell time. There are several ways to achieve this, most of which I would not discuss (a man's gotta keep some of his secrets...) but the one we all know well is a foam. With a foam, it is possible to cover the surface and keep it covered much longer than with a thin liquid film. Moreover, the kinetics of a foam mean that it (should) break down in time resulting in the initial, interface (i.e. foam/paint) being continually refreshed by new foam from the bulk foam region. So we achieve both a long dwell time and a constant refreshing of the essential surfactants/bases/solvents. So chemically, foaming works. In practice, it also works, just not as well as some would hope. The reasons for this I outlined previously - briefly, the dilution levels and the additional effective dilution caused by volumetric parameters mean that the effective chemical concentration is in fact much lower than with traditional prewash (or TFR) methods.



This is not something which is really for debate, it is accepted theory. The debate is really reserved for the latter part, the effective concentration at the surface. If one goes as far as to use the foams at a level that would achieve the 1:20 levels often used with prewashes, the level of cleaning tends to be notably better.
 
PiPUK said:
It is not bunk and it is simple chemistry.



Check my posts here and elsewhere and you will see that I am biased because I am a formulator/manufacturer. However I also have the insight provided by a scientific background and a specific expertise in cleaning chemistry. There is one over-riding principle which underlies aqueous cleaning system. That principle is wetting. In order for a soil to be removed by an aqueous system, it needs to be wetted so that it may be incorporated into the wash solution. If you fail to do this, you need additional assistance, most commonly (in this scenario) mechanical assistance by way of a sponge/mitt/other wash media.



So to focus on wetting. How does one wet an un-specified soil? Well there are different types of soils. For example, you have dry particulate soils which are relatively easily wet or can be wet with small amounts of the appropriate surfactant. Then there are oily soils which repel water and are extremely hard to wet, even with the correct surfactants. Most loose soiling generally could be described with the first generalisation and this can be easily removed with water or moderate pressure washing. Unfortunately this does not provide a touchless wash because we have traffic films which are inherently oily and are relatively immune to water in isolation and are all but impossible to 'wet' fully. There are then several things one can attempt to do to improve this. The most gentle is appropriate surfactants and solvents to bridge between hydrophobic oily soils and the bulk aqueous medium. This is a time dependent reaction, it takes time for the surfactants to surround the oily molecules and to liberate them from the surface to which they are bonded. Heavier duty cleaners will use high alkalinity as an addition. This will chemically react with the oily film and actually convert it to a soap (remember your high school chemistry lessons about 'saponification'). So not only is the film dissolved but you form a surfactant which further enhances the wetting of remaining soils. Again, this is a time dependent process.



So there you have the fundamental of what is going on. Both of the highlighted mechanisms are time dependent. The longer the process carries on, assuming adequate chemical for the 'reactions' to proceed, the more effectively the soils will be wetted and the more completely they will be able to be removed with a pressurised water rinse. So now it should be obvious that there is a very simple method to enhance the cleaning process without the need for increasing the strength of the basic wash solution - dwell time. There are several ways to achieve this, most of which I would not discuss (a man's gotta keep some of his secrets...) but the one we all know well is a foam. With a foam, it is possible to cover the surface and keep it covered much longer than with a thin liquid film. Moreover, the kinetics of a foam mean that it (should) break down in time resulting in the initial, interface (i.e. foam/paint) being continually refreshed by new foam from the bulk foam region. So we achieve both a long dwell time and a constant refreshing of the essential surfactants/bases/solvents. So chemically, foaming works. In practice, it also works, just not as well as some would hope. The reasons for this I outlined previously - briefly, the dilution levels and the additional effective dilution caused by volumetric parameters mean that the effective chemical concentration is in fact much lower than with traditional prewash (or TFR) methods.



This is not something which is really for debate, it is accepted theory. The debate is really reserved for the latter part, the effective concentration at the surface. If one goes as far as to use the foams at a level that would achieve the 1:20 levels often used with prewashes, the level of cleaning tends to be notably better.



Do you have proof that your chemicals and a hose remove more abrasive particles than a pressure washer using plain water?



Until then...



Hope you sell lots of foam to suckers! BTW, do you ever actually wash cars or do you just spend time in the lab?
 
Dan said:
Do you have proof that your chemicals and a hose remove more abrasive particles than a pressure washer using plain water?



Until then...



Hope you sell lots of foam to suckers! BTW, do you ever actually wash cars or do you just spend time in the lab?



I need not provide specific evidence because there are numerous, generic studies in the literature over a great many years on the topic. More than that, there are hundreds of thousands of global users of foam cleaning systems, both domestic, professional and industrial and this is not limited to automotive applications.



I will not belittle myself by, metaphorically, climbing into the gutter and throwing mud. I have received numerous thanks and messages from other forum users who appreciate a chemist providing some insight - I would suggest you block my posts if you would rather not share in that.



pwaug said:
PiPUK --- Sure do wish we had the Gloria Faomaster FM 10 her in the US. Seems to product a thick foam more like an MTM rather than the Gilmore and you don't have to drag out the pressure washer.



Gloria FoamMaster FM10 + CG Honeydew (1:60) - YouTube



The truth is that excessively thick foams are not necessarily better. Super stable foams are such that the bulk of the foam will never actually interact with the surface so what one does is simply waste a lot of chemical producing a foam which plays no part in the cleaning process. The ideal foam will, as above, break down and carry away the dirt, replenishing the surface area with chemical. If you have piles of thick foam on the ground an hour after foaming, the product will not be performing optimally. That said, I am also well aware that many users simply don't care - lets face it, big thick foam can be quite good fun!
 
PiPUK said:
I need not provide specific evidence because there are numerous, generic studies in the literature over a great many years on the topic. More than that, there are hundreds of thousands of global users of foam cleaning systems, both domestic, professional and industrial and this is not limited to automotive applications.



I will not belittle myself by, metaphorically, climbing into the gutter and throwing mud. I have received numerous thanks and messages from other forum users who appreciate a chemist providing some insight - I would suggest you block my posts if you would rather not share in that.



Answering questions is throwing mud? Why do you balk at practical, real life evidence?



I can take the harshest chemical I have, Megs Wheel Brightener. I can coat wheels with it it, let sit and rinse with a hose. Or I can hit it with a pressure washer and plain water. Guess which works better.
 
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