NXT vs. Z2 vs. Klasse SG Cleaning Test (56K warning)

[BradE]

As far as your specific question above, I'll guess it will remove some of the Zaino, and some of the Klasse.

Mike,



I've been conducting a test all day today on this very issue. I will post my results tonight in this thread. I need to resize the pics and do the write up.



A short preview of what I did:



- 4 lines. 1 a control with nothing applied over it. 2nd line has 1 layer of Z2 + ZFX applied over it. 3rd line has 2 layers of Z2 + ZFX applied over it. 4th and final line has 3 layers of Z2 + ZFX over it.



- Then applied NXT over each one, using same method as I did before.



The following isn't directed at you Mike, so don't take this the wrong way. For those of you who will complain the Z2 wasn't cured, I followed Sal's mixing directions and application instructions to the letter. If Sal's logic is good enough that we can apply 3 layers per day to our vehicles using ZFX (with full layering properities) than it's good enough for the purposes of this test. If you have a problem with that, argue with Sal.



Updated test coming tonight! :bounce:

 

[imported_memnuts]

Nobody answered my question about how a product "bonds" to the paint. This could be because they can't in the scientific sense.

Hope this helps a little. :xyxthumbs



Why Does It Stick?

Researchers discovered more than a century ago that there was an electrostatic attraction, called the van der Waals force, between any two surfaces. Positively charged particles on one surface tend to be attracted to negatively charged particles on the other, with the result that the two surfaces as a whole attract each other. Press your finger flat against the surface of a table and then pull it away: the slight stick is the van der Waals force.



But it is very slight. The van der Waals force is roughly a ten-thousandth of the force exerted by an everyday tape. Adhesives have something else going for them: they are all made of polymers. Polymers are chain molecules, like spaghetti, except that relative to their own diameter they are even longer than spaghetti strands. And, like spaghetti, they get tangled up. Yank on a mass of spaghetti and it all comes up with your fork, as if it were an elastic solid. Pull it apart steadily with two forks and it slowly yields, as if it were a viscous fluid. But Polymer are like adhesives (glues): they're viscoelastic. It takes a lot of work to pull them apart--about 100 times, physicists have calculated, what it would take to unstick something held by van der Waals attraction alone.



Just a little bit of science involved here but not the complete story.

:wavey

 

[imported_ajbarnes]

Hope this helps a little.



Why Does It Stick?

Researchers discovered more than a century ago that there was an electrostatic attraction, called the van der Waals force, between any two surfaces. Positively charged particles on one surface tend to be attracted to negatively charged particles on the other, with the result that the two surfaces as a whole attract each other. Press your finger flat against the surface of a table and then pull it away: the slight stick is the van der Waals force.



But it is very slight. The van der Waals force is roughly a ten-thousandth of the force exerted by an everyday tape. Adhesives have something else going for them: they are all made of polymers. Polymers are chain molecules, like spaghetti, except that relative to their own diameter they are even longer than spaghetti strands. And, like spaghetti, they get tangled up. Yank on a mass of spaghetti and it all comes up with your fork, as if it were an elastic solid. Pull it apart steadily with two forks and it slowly yields, as if it were a viscous fluid. But Polymer are like adhesives (glues): they're viscoelastic. It takes a lot of work to pull them apart--about 100 times, physicists have calculated, what it would take to unstick something held by van der Waals attraction alone.



Just a little bit of science involved here.

:wavey

Okay, now I'm brain fried!



This is an interesting thread........starting to find out some interesting points, and also to mention, some interesting personalities .



I'm anticpating your second test SRL. :xyxthumbs

 

[imported_Intermezzo]

Would you prefer I stop?

Absolutely not! To be honest, your posts are informative. However, I guess I'm just used to the more humble and low key approach (as opposed to hype and arrogance) taken by Forrest, who does his best to help people out whenever he can, but is still very careful about maintaining the forum's integrity.

 

[imported_memnuts]

ajbarnes I agree. This is one of the best threads in a long time. Some heated discussions but all in the search for detailing truth.

Also looking forward to SRL test :xyxthumbs

 

[imported_jgv]

ajbarnes I agree. This is one of the best threads in a long time. Some heated discussions but all in the search for detailing truth.

Also looking forward to SRL test :xyxthumbs

Same here, too bad his 'at night' is my sleep time



Cause we could also know how much of Z (or any other thing there) would be removed by almost any other 'topper' people use...

 

[beanbag]

Hope this helps a little. :xyxthumbs



Why Does It Stick?

Researchers discovered more than a century ago that there was an electrostatic attraction, called the van der Waals force, between any two surfaces. Positively charged particles on one surface tend to be attracted to negatively charged particles on the other, with the result that the two

surfaces as a whole attract each other.





What you are talking about is an electrostatic interaction caused by charge transfer, where two insulating surfaces can have net charge, but since they are insulating, the charges don't slide off . An example of this is dust sticking to your car after you buff it.

VDW forces are caused by dipole interactions, not charge transfer.

http://www.chemguide.co.uk/atoms/bonding/vdw.html





Press your finger flat against the surface of a table and then pull it away: the slight stick is the van der Waals force.





No, it's the oils or moisture on your finger. Do the same test, but put some powder on your finger first, or try getting all the oils off with iso or acetone. Your finger is not "flat" enough for you to feel these VDW forces.







But it is very slight. The van der Waals force is roughly a ten-thousandth of the force exerted by an everyday tape. Adhesives have something else going for them: they are all made of polymers. Polymers are chain molecules, like spaghetti, except that relative to their own diameter they are even longer than spaghetti strands. And, like spaghetti, they get tangled up. Yank on a mass of spaghetti and it all comes up with your fork, as if it were an elastic solid. Pull it apart steadily with two forks and it slowly yields, as if it were a viscous fluid. But Polymer are like adhesives (glues): they're viscoelastic. It takes a lot of work to pull them apart--about 100 times, physicists have calculated, what it would take to unstick something held by van der Waals attraction alone.





Considering the wide range of hardnesses between different kinds of polymers, I'd like to know where you came up with that number. In addition, this mechanism only relates to how the polymer sticks to itself, not how it sticks to a surface.

 

[Corey Bit Spank]

BlkZ28 was making a generalization to those of us that don't have a huge science backround (oh, but I will...). Now I get how it "sticks." 10th grade chemistry lesson for Corey.

 

[GoodnClean]

Absolutely not! To be honest, your posts are informative. However, I guess I'm just used to the more humble and low key approach (as opposed to hype and arrogance) taken by Forrest, who does his best to help people out whenever he can, but is still very careful about maintaining the forum's integrity.

Just poking my head in here where I'm sure it doesn't belong. I've been a silent bystander until now.



Was this really neccisary? You made a statement that you're used to Forrest's approach, that was fine in and of itself. What use does making the statement "as opposed to hype and arrogance" infering obviously that Mike posts are full of "hype and arrogance" and Forrest's posts are "humble and low key" to getting to the truth here and not just continuing a argument and bringing it down to a personal level?



In defense of Mike, as an outsider in this thread IMHO he's being lynched here, personally attacked and its gone to the point where members have inferred that he knowingly has lied to promote this product. If you were in that situation you might get a little bit defensive too. In comparing Mike to Forrest, Meguiars spends a lot more time getting burned on here than Mothers does. I'd rather be in Forrest's shoes. I can't think of any Mothers haters, but I can think of plenty of Megs haters. When you believe in something its hard to listen to people cut it down. I think he's right, I think some members do dismiss and cut down Meguiars products out of hand, as if they had an axe to grind.



Bear in mind the only two Megs products I use are DACP and Quick Detailer, so I'm not a "Megs Zealot" at all.

 

[imported_memnuts]

beanbag,

The same forces and the adhersive properties of polymers themselves form the bond between the surface (paint) and the polymer sealant. This even occurs with products that contain silicones but not as strong. That description was from a textbook. I normally do not carry these types of esoteric figures in my head or the technical data about polymer sealants. But I was curious when I first ventured into Autopia and remembered a discussion about this topic and pull out a textbook and did a web search about this subject.

As stated there is science involved here and if you are further interested please research these terms: polymer, Van der Waal forces, Viscoelasticity and Adhersive (many are polymers themselves).

 

[Corey Bit Spank]

beanbag,

The same forces and the adhersive properties of polymers themselves form the bond between the surface (paint) and the polymer sealant. This even occurs with products that contain silicones but not as strong. That description was from a textbook. I normally do not carry these types of esoteric figures in my head or the technical data about polymer sealants. But I was curious when I first ventured into Autopia and remembered a discussion about this topic and pull out a textbook and did a web search about this subject.

As stated there is science involved here and if you are further interested please research these terms: polymer, Van der Waal forces, Viscoelasticity and Adhersive (many are polymers themselves).

I may be going into chemistry/chemical engineering. We'll see what I want to do with my life in the next 2 years. Then I'll wow you all with my dipoles. :scared

 

[BradE]

Ok everyone, here is the summary of my testing today.



Background: I applied 4 marker lines (same blue sharpie as before) to the top of my dryer (same dryer used in previous tests). I cleaning the top of the dryer with Denatured alcohol to ensure nothing was on the surface to prevent contamination.



The lines are as follows: (from left to right in pic)



Line 1: A control sample. Marker with nothing applied over it.



Line 2: Marker with 1 layer of Z2 (w/ZFX) applied over it.



Line 3: Marker with 2 layers of Z2 (w/ZFX) applied over it



Line 4: Marker with 3 layers of Z2 (w/ZFX) applied over it.



Each layer of Zaino was allowed to dry for a FULL HOUR before being removed with a microfiber towel. I followed the instructions supplied by Zaino Bros for the proper mixing of Z2 with ZFX. The Z2/ZFX mix was applied to the entire length of the line. NXT was applied through the center of each of these lines. The Z2/ZFX combo didn't lift any of the marker.



Here is a picture of all 4 lines, post Zaino application, just prior to NXT application.

NXT was applied in the same method as my previous test. A small drop (little bigger than a dime) on a foam applicator and worked back and fourth for 5 strokes with medium pressure.



Control sample - NXT had no problem removing the control sample with no product applied over it. Given my previous test, this is not suprising, so lets move on. ļ



1 layer of Z2 (w/ZFX) As you can see from the picture below, NXT removed the marker, even with 1 layer of Z2 on it.

2 layers of Z2 (w/ZFX) This is where the test began to get more interesting. After applying NXT to this line, it removed a portion of the marker. It didn't, however, remove as much as it did with only 1 layer. The center portion of the application area was removed first and there blurring of the line that extends out from the center. While removal was less, it still removed some of the marker. Please refer to the picture below, each line is marked.

3 layers of Z2 (w/ZFX)- After NXT application on this line, once again some of the marker was removed. This line, was the least however. The spot were it was totally removed is smaller than the line with 2 layers of Z2, but the area of blurring (partial removal) that extends out from the center is greater. Please refer to the picture above.



Here is picture after the application of NXT to all the lines, with their respective applicator pads above each labeled line.

Conclusion I'm sad to report that NXT removed a least a portion of the marker line in each scenario. It did remove less and less as the number of Zaino layers on top of the line got higher. Well, there you have it! Make of it what you will.

 

[GoodnClean]

Very interesting...

 

[spetulla]

I wish nxt had no cleaners

 

[GoodnClean]

Wasn't there talk of a BSP level version of NXT somewhere down the line? Would that potentially be cleaner-free?



So NXT is similar in its cleaning ability to Poorboys EX...

 

[imported_memnuts]

I may be going into chemistry/chemical engineering. We'll see what I want to do with my life in the next 2 years. Then I'll wow you all with my dipoles. :scared

Great Corey. :xyxthumbs

I am very serious about education. Study hard but also enjoy the whole college and grad school experiences. There's a whole world of knowledge just waiting to be discovered.

 

[spetulla]

that test is very cool I plan on doing it tonight withs ome stuff

 

[imported_memnuts]

Excellent findings and documentation. :bow

 

[Jesstzn]

ShowroomLincoln ... ty very much .. it is as I suspected based on your first test too.

 

[Frank F.]

Thank you one and all. This has been the most edifying thread I have ever read.