Heck, I have 3 tins of Gold Class that claim different things - synthetic, synthetic blend, beading, sheeting, etc...similar labels on my Medallion bottles...[/i]
That was before I came to work here and out of my control. That said, changes in labeling are common to all business as are changes to formulas, usually to improve both.
It's funny that the product in question received hype that approached rabid levels and we were all led to believe it was going to be the greatest gift to detailing. "No cleaners - none, zip, nada" was one quote...now we've found that wasn't exactly accurate.
You use the word
hype, I use the word
excitement.
The appearance results speak for themselves. You use your words to position the buzz as hype, while all I did was detail cars and post pictures of the results. Actually, I did more than that, I have held dozens of clinics inviting approximately 30 people to each one, and let these people try the product for themselves. (Why doesn't anyone remember this?). Ask anyone who has attended any of my clinics and I think they will confirm that I don’t try to do it for them, I encourage them to do it for themselves.
I cannot remember a single person that didn't like the results of NXT Tech Wax over whatever product they were previously using, like this Mini Cooper owner.
[b][url]http://www.showcargarage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=358&perpage=15&pagenumber=5[/b][/url]
As far as the cleaners, or cleaning ability of NXT Tech Wax, check out this thread and the 3rd message down, which I posted on Posted:
01-17-2004 11:48 PM
http://www.showcargarage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=593&perpage=15&pagenumber=5
Mike Phillips said:
Interestingly enough, the first time I have ever seen the MSD sheet for NXT Tech wax was when Steve posted it to Roadfly.org and then compared and contrasted it to #20 Polymer Sealant. I'm not a chemist and have never pretended to be, in fact, most of the time when things get real chemical technical, I try to bring the topic into a more practical discussion of what does the topic of discussion mean on a practical level, i.e. what do we see with our eyes, what do we do with our hands ect.
That's the honest truth. I had not seen the MSD sheet for any of the NXT Gen line until someone PM'd me that Steve had posted it to Roadfly.org and did a compare and contrast to #20.
All the way up to that time, I was led to believe that I was testing, and using a synthetic wax that had no cleaners, no abrasives and thus no cleaning ability.
Somewhere else on ShowCarGarge, (I think), Steve posted some pictures or made some comments about the cleaning ability of NXT. Somewhere, (I cannot locate my response), I wrote, something to the effect of,
"Steve may have one on me here".
That too was posted around the time of the above post, i.e. at the end of January. The reason I wrote that was because after Steve posted the MSD sheet to Roadfly, I printed his post out and then discussed it with a chemist. That’s when I found out that, yes, in fact, the NXT Tech Wax does have a very
sleight amount of some very
specialized cleaners in it.
From the forthcoming NXT Tech Wax FAQ
Does this contain any abrasives?
Yes, NXT is a very specialized formula, which has the ability to eliminate fine swirls without scouring the surface. There are many, many styles and types of “cleaners" and "abrasives� available to use, and Meguiar’s chooses the correct specialized cleaner, or abrasive for it's own unique characteristics depending on the results the formula is intended to accomplish. The materials used in NXT are designed to safely eliminate those stubborn fine swirls, which are troubling to all of us, especially on a dark colored cars.
However, when your finish has moderate to heavy swirls or is neglected you will need to pre-clean the surface prior to applying NXT Tech Wax.
>end of FAQ<
When I wrote and posted that NXT has no cleaners, and/or cleaning ability, to my knowledge at that time, that was the truth as I knew it. I find once in a while someone challenges my credibility because of who I work for. I realize that is something I will never overcome, but honest Indian, I never knew the formula was created to lightly clean the surface. I noticed when using it it did appear to clean ever so lightly, but I attributed that to the application material and the procedure, usually a PC with a W-8006 polishing pad on approximately the 4.0 to 4.5 setting.
NXT does contain a slight amount of a specialized cleaner.
"Longest lasting formula" claims the box (forgive me for paraphrasing, but I'm some 1500 miles from my NXT box) and after appearing to have died after 3.5 weeks (for me), that may not be true either. But now, as people (some critics, some fans) play with it, we're all learning more about it, which I think is great.
For the record,
I have never positioned Tech Wax as Meguiar’s longest lasting product, I like to focus on this products ability to create beautiful results. The reason I do this is because it’s just too hard to demonstrate or prove protection and durability. I don’t believe water beading proves protection, I believe it demonstrates high surface tension, and
can prove durability. But I don’t believe protection and durability are the same thing. Does that make sense? Just because a product can last a long time by bonding or sticking to the surface doesn’t automatically prove that it is also acting as a protective barrier film to that surface.
See this thread,
http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25806
I wish manufacturers and distributors wouldn't get so defensive over findings and discussions
Some findings, and some discussion include wrong information. Sometimes this is by accident, but sometimes, it would appear some people have an axe to grind. If wrong, or incorrect information goes unchallenged, then people who read the incorrect information may get the wrong idea, or worse, continue to spread the false information unknowingly. I’m not saying you would do this because a part of your job is to evaluate products in an unbiased and fair manner. This, I would assume, means staying above the fray of innuendos and skewed opinions.
heck, if I were a manufacturer, I'd see it as an opportunity to evaluate my product and I'd try to wring as much free "focus group" info as I could from the whole experience.
I agree. And Autopia and Autopians are an excellent example of this kind of feedback. I would say, if you could win over an Autopian, you could win over just about anyone.
Understand, my passion is to learn things and to uncover truth in an industry that's full of hype and at times blatant BS.
I understand this, and appreciate your dedication. I also agree that the industry is full of hype and at times, blatant BS. I cannot think of a single wax company that doesn’t use some form of marketing hype to sell their products. It’s the nature of the beast and it pertains to more than just wax companies.
Your position is to assist with promoting Meguiar's products (be it through writing, training, or posting on the web), so in effect we're the North and South poles - we may not see eye to eye on things but we share a common passion - detailing.
I’m also in charge of doing my best to correct wrong information. This is one of the hardest parts of my job. It’s also the least fun. I would rather remove deep buffer swirl from a thin factory clear coat under bad lighting conditions.
I hate it when everyone takes my comments so damned personally. I'm not out to get anyone.
Steve, I’m not taking anything you say personally, but I do want to stand up for my side of the story, and when applicable, admit when I’m wrong, or point out where I’m correct.
I was wrong on the no cleaning ability of NXT Tech Wax.
I am correct on the appearance results of the product.
Some call it hype, I call it excitement. NXT Tech Wax takes 99.9% of the cars I have applied it to, to their maximum potential. Not only has it worked for me, but it is working for other people too. The yellow Viper is a good example. I didn’t do any of the prep work, the owner did. I didn’t apply the Tech Wax, the owner did, I didn’t take the pictures, the owner did. I have met the owner of the Viper, and he has given me no reason to believe he is either an experienced detailer, or a highly skilled do-it-yourselfer, (Maybe you are Dave, I just don’t know), as far as I know, he would fall into the largest category of consumers and that is as a do-it-yourselfer.
Time will tell if this is a great product. If it is, it will become very popular. If it isn’t, then I should have my eyes checked and possibly reconsider all that I know about creating show car finishes.
NXT is not a cleaner/wax by Meguiar’s definition, or by my own. A cleaner/wax is a one-step product for restoring neglected finishes by cleaning, polishing and protection in one step. NXT’s best results come from applying it to previously cleaned and polished surfaces. If however, it is applied to a finish that is a little less than perfect, then it will in most cases clean the surface just enough to improve the visual beauty characteristics, as well as insure proper bonding.
This is a consumer product. Most consumers own and drive what I call
daily drivers. As such, their vehicles finish, more than likely are not perfect, at least to an Autopians standards. At the same time, unlike an Autopian, most consumers do not want to perform a multiple step process to their cars finish. They want to wash and wax and be done.
I’m sure most of you understand that if you apply a pure wax to the finish of a daily driver without first claying, and cleaning the paint, the pure wax will act to seal in dirt and other contaminants
in the paint, and
on the paint. This will act to gray or cloud the color and decrease the clarity.
NXT Tech Wax while not a cleaner/wax in the true sense of the word, will effectively clean the surface ever so lightly to insure excellent results for the widest spectrum of users and their finishes.
Because I have found no product that benefits the overall results this product achieves after one or two thin coats, I consider it a LSP, last step product. Now with all of the testing going on out their, I’m open to trying new things. If someone shows me that applying Zaino, or P21S, or Souveran over the top of NXT Tech Wax and it improves the finish in a number of different dimensions, especially under bright lights like direct sunlight,
then show me. I’m open to taking paint to it’s maximum potential.
If the MSDS are so critical and raise so much concern, aren't they accurate and telling? But if they're so "vague," then I can hardly understand how they're so "proprietary." It's funny how their relevance flip-flops...one minute they're meaningless and the next they're proprietary and damning.
The whole thing about MSD sheets is they are important, for shipping, storage and safety reasons. But you cannot deduce what’s in a specific product by the information they contain. I too like to read MSD sheets to get an idea of what’s inside a product. But after some recent meetings and discussions on chemistry, I now know that I don’t know very much about chemistry.
I also question anything someone writes based upon what they read in a MSD sheet. That includes you. Your real world tests have more relevance in my opinion.
As for flip flopping, I don’t see it. They contain the relevant information companies and employees need to transport, store and handle safely, but at the same time, they are carefully worded so as not to compromise private information. Meguiar’s is not the only company that wants to keep their formula’s secret. Heck, some companies don’t even make their MSD sheets publicly available. Meguiar’s does this because they are proud of their products and have nothing to hide. (except their secrets and their formula’s, but I think/hope you know what I mean)
What other wax companies make their MSD sheets available online? Can someone make a list? First list all the wax companies that have a website, then list all the wax company websites that offer their MSD sheets. This should be interesting. Who’s leading the way, who’s setting the standard?
I'm simply looking for answers. If I've said it once, I've said it 1000 times - we're talkin' wax, not world politics, right? It ain't worth gettin' all huffed up about...
If I’ve agreed with you once, I’ve agreed with you a 1000 times, we’re talking car wax here folks, not world politics.
I thought I had explained this before at SCG when the last huff was circulating re: NXT. It's obvious the product is important to big M and its assigns, or these little discussions wouldn't grow so out of hand.
First, can we use the name Meguiar’s and not the letter “M�. This reminds me too much of
RayGun, (but I’m down with it if that’s what you like).
The huff that was circulating on SCG was started when you did a compare and contrast of #20 to NXT Tech Wax by listing the ingredients in the MSD sheet. It appeared that some people took your tone as one of a killjoy, especially when your posted stated at the end,
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/detailing/4500186-1.html
[Disclaimer: I'm a cranky, killjoy who strives for the truth and looks past the marketing hype, or at least looks for the hidden message in things. I've also given up caffeine as of this week, so I'm extra cranky and an extra killjoy...] 
As previously discussed above,
Understand, my passion is to learn things and to uncover truth in an industry that's full of hype and at times blatant BS.
I understand this, and appreciate your dedication. I also agree that the industry is full of hype and at times, blatant BS. I cannot think of a single wax company that doesn’t use some form of marketing hype to sell their products. It’s the nature of the beast and it pertains to more than just wax companies.
You and I, as well as many others who have spent anytime at all on discussion forums understand that it can be very easy to take something the wrong way. I’ve done it, I’ll probably do it again. I’ve seen others do it in this thread.
Here’s what I do whenever I question how I am perceiving another persons post,
I push my self away from the keyboard and go do something else and then come back to the thread with a fresh perspective.
Most of the time this works. Sometimes it doesn’t and I eat a little crow. But here’s what I know,
I’m in this for the long run. Detailing cars is my passion, (actually, polishing paint is my passion, tires, carpets, door jambs, wheels, etc, are just necessary evils), If I left Meguiar’s tomorrow, or if Meguiar’s asked me to leave today, I would still be a part of the world-wide discussion on products and procedures. I’m not going away. For this reason, I try my best to be honest in my posts, and help people to get the best results possible from their time, money and efforts. Anything else is all for nothing.
Helping people get the best possible results from their time, money and efforts is my number one goal, and I hope that most of you here would agree that is the majority of what I have done in the past. I think that’s what a majority of Autopians do here and it is only a handful of people that practice something else.
NXT Tech Wax is a great product in my opinion,
and in my experience. Meguiar’s thinks so too. So much in fact that right on the box they say,
Meguiar’s Guarantee
THIS IS BY FAR THE EASIEST CAR WAX YOU’VE EVER USED OR YOUR MONEY BACK. If this product isn’t all we say it is, return the unused portion for a full refund of the verified purchase price.
In my book, (not my actual how-to book, but in my way of believing), this is called,
putting your money where your mouth is.
I hope I have addressed most of the issues in this thread. I have to go now, I actually have work to do, for example: Check out this thread,
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=118
I'm going to do my best to help this guy get the best results from his time, money and efforts.
Later....
Mike
. Patting each other on the back would serve no purpose but the revealing of the truth about products benefits everyone. :xyxthumbs
