NXT vs. Z2 vs. Klasse SG Cleaning Test (56K warning)

I think SRL proves that it is unlikely that NXT can be layered but then again, I don't remember where a claim that it could be layered was made. Was there a post I missed that someone said it could?
 
Nice test, simple and to the point. I would like to add one thing to this though. The test clearly show that NXT removed the marker, there is no question about that! The question that need to be answered now is did it remove it abrasivly or chemicaly?
 
Wasn't trying to make the post political, it was just a comparison, and the first one that came to mind...



As for the other post, here's the comparison I posted:



Water Content

NXT = 40-60%

#20 = 35-55%



Solvents (Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbons)

NXT = 15-30%

#20 = 15-25%



Solvents, Part II (Hydrotreated Distillates)

NXT = 1-5%

#20 = 1-5%



Kaolin (an abrasive compound; NXT contains Calcined Kaolin, which is slightly modified Kaolin)

NXT = 5-15%

#20 = 8-12%



Polysiloxane (member of Silicone Oil family)

NXT = 2-10%

#20 = 1-5%



Polyglycerol Ester specifically: 1,2,3-propanetriol, homopolymer, (Z)-9-octadecenoate (An emulsifier (fatty acid), used to thicken things)

NXT = 1-5%

#20 = Not identified



Polymer Wax Blend, CAS-8015-86-9 (Carnauba Wax)

NXT = Identified as "Trade Secret," so it may be different than #20 = 1-5%

#20 = 1-5% (Identified as CAS-8015-86-9)



"Conditioners" (Identified as Trade Secret, unidentifiable)

NXT = 2-6%

#20 = 1-5%



Light Distilliate

NXT = None listed

#20 = 10-15%



As I mentioned earlier, these are the "old" numbers...they changed mysteriously after a big stink was raised about my post.
 
geekysteve said:
Visit meguiar's and check their msds- mine are in .pdf format...too hard to post quickly/easily.
Click to expand...



.pdf = pain in the rear!



Based on the ingredient breakdown, how do you assess the similarities and differences?
 
Here's my nickel:



The average joe typically won't take the time to clean his paint and remove any leftover polishing oils as is required with sealants that are regarded as "layerable" (KSG and Zaino). Another washing step, or a pre-sealant cleaner step (such as AIO) to get the paint suitably prepped is going to turn off all but enthusiasts (namely, us). So, to get NXT to work under a wide variety of conditions, and over a wide variety of polishes (or no polish at all), the chemists used solvents and very fine abrasives to provide enough cleaning action to ensure that the polymer would bond properly. After all, NXT is being marketed as a "consumer" product, so convenience is going to matter a great deal to the target market.



Sound reasonable? It's pure speculation on my part, though. All that said, I don't mind that NXT has cleaning abilities, but I'm glad I found out before embarking on a (fruitless) layering binge this spring.



Tort
 
They didn't change much - they reworded their "Polymer Wax Blend" (which is how it was referred to in #20, with the CAS#) to "Synthetic Polymer Blend" and increased the percentages to 3-5% from 1-5%. And they adjusted the percentages for the Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbon - dropped it from 15-30% to 15-25%.



My guess is that they're using about a 3.5% blend of the "synthetic polymer blend" - but that's just a guess...and my other guess is that the I.H. percentage is around 23%, but again, it's just a guess (based on playing with numbers).
 
So Steve, your guess would be that #20 and NXT are similar but not exactly the same then, right? I see a lot of the same ingredients but slightly different percetages and #20 has 'Light Distilliate' and NXT has none (at least none listed). What do you make of the slightly higher water content?



I'm just trying to find out how the ingredients and differing percentages matter in the scheme of things.
 
BW said:
I don't think they *want* to or I don't think they *can* make one without cleaners. More refined solvents = more expensive = make less $$$
Click to expand...



Why don't you think Meguiar's uses the best, most refined solvents money can buy?



Why would you even make that statement?



Just curious?



Mike
 
geekysteve said:
They didn't change much - they reworded their "Polymer Wax Blend" (which is how it was referred to in #20, with the CAS#) to "Synthetic Polymer Blend" and increased the percentages to 3-5% from 1-5%. And they adjusted the percentages for the Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbon - dropped it from 15-30% to 15-25%.



My guess is that they're using about a 3.5% blend of the "synthetic polymer blend" - but that's just a guess...and my other guess is that the I.H. percentage is around 23%, but again, it's just a guess (based on playing with numbers).
Click to expand...



Because of the incorrect information you posted, I discussed your post on Roadfly with the head chemist.



Then he told me that the ingredients in the new Tech wax were new and completely different from the ingredients used in #20 Polymer Sealant. The MSD sheets are not formula’s. They are for shipping, storing and safety purposes. They are vague for a reason. For someone to dissect one to try to prove something is ridiculous.



People reading this can either believe me, or they can believe Steve. Your choice.



Afterwards, the MSD sheet was changed to reflect the new wax blend used to create NXT Tech wax. By the way, I think if you look at all of Meguiar’s MSD sheets, except for NXT Tech Wax and Spray wax, you will see they all use the generic, vague descriptor, �Polymer Wax Blend�.



Does that mean they’re all the same? (the correct answer is no)





Then, I was sent the below statement concerning MSD sheets and the incorrect information being posted to the Internet.



(Begin Statement)



We are pleased to see the level of excitement on the new NXT line of Meguiar’s so high. Since 1901 Meguiar’s has strived to deliver the best product possible, and by the comments on the web regarding the outstanding performance of this new product line, we have been able to deliver a high quality Meguiar’s product once again. Unfortunately, there are a few comments relating to the new NXT line, which are not only misleading, but also downright false.



It appears there have been some comparisons of our product by looking at MSD Sheets and by doing this, a conclusion has been drawn that we package the same product in multiple packages and names. This could not be farther from the truth.



Please allow us to correctly inform you of what an MSDS represents.



MSD Sheets are by no means actual formulations. They are primarily used for shipping and storing purposes and are not designed for the general public. At Meguiar’s we know our competitors are watching us closely and have been trying to copy our formulations for years, so to assume an MSD Sheet actually reveals vital information to aid in this process is absurd…Furthermore, MSD Sheets only list chemical families, not the actual chemical.



For example, take the broad category of “Solventsâ€�. This category could include “petroleum distillatesâ€�. Within Petroleum Distillates you could find a wide range of products from gasoline to even baby oil. So when someone assumes 2 products use the same chemical because they both list “solventsâ€� on their MSD Sheets…they are assuming wrong.



Meguiar’s uses very general statements in our MSD Sheets to describe chemical wax compositions as a “Polymer Wax Blend�, which is stated on most of our wax protectant products.



Since NXT contains no carnauba or any other wax found in M-20 (Polymer Sealant), there seems to be some confusion on the MSD Sheet. Because of this confusion, we have changed the MSD Sheet to help clarify the situation. NXT Tech Wax and Spray Wax contains all new synthetic waxes and polymers. So we have changed the general statement to read “Synthetic Polymer Blend�. We hope this clears up any and all confusion when discussing MSD Sheets and chemical families and formulations.



(End of statement)



So while I for one can appreciate your zeal to enlighten everyone about Meguiar's proprietary information, how do you know for fact, what's in a Meguiar's formula based on what's listed on the MSD sheet?







Mike
 
MPPP

Calcined Kaolin Clay 66402-68-4 5-15%

Polysiloxane 63148-62-9 1-5%

Hydrotreated Distillate 64742-46-7 2-8%

Polymer Wax Blend 8015-86-9 1-5%

Conditioners TS 1-5%

Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbon 64742-48-9 8-22%

Light Distillate 64742-14-9 4-12%

Water 7732-18-5 40-60%



#20

Kaolin 1332-58-7 8-12%

Polysiloxane 63148-62-9 1-5%

Hydrotreated Distillate 64742-46-7 1-5%

Polymer Wax Blend 8015-86-9 1-5%

Conditioners TS 1-5%

Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbon 64742-48-9 15-25%

Light Distillate 64742-14-9 10-15%

Water 7732-18-5 35-55%



NXT

Calcined Kaolin Clay 66402-68-4 5-15%

Polysiloxane 63148-62-9 2-10%

Hydrotreated Distillate 64742-46-7 1-5%

Synthetic Polymer Blend TS 3-5%

Conditioners TS 2-6%

Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbon 64742-48-9 15-25%

Polyglycerol Ester 9007-48-1 1-5%

Water 7732-18-5 40-60%
 
BW said:
I don't think they *want* to or I don't think they *can* make one without cleaners. More refined solvents = more expensive = make less $$$
Click to expand...



Meguiar’s Petroleum Distillates



The petroleum distillates Meguiar’s uses are:



· Environmentally Safe

· Contain No Aromatic Hydrocarbons

· Contain No other Serious Air Pollutants



They are also distilled multiple times to remove:



· Carcinogens

· Reproductive Toxins

· Multiple other Impurities





You will be hard pressed to find another automotive appearance care company that goes to the extent Meguiar’s goes to in order to create products that are both environmentally safe as well as safe for use by their customers.



Where's the problem BW?



Mike
 
Actually, I think if people look at the MSDS carefully, side by side, as I posted them, it supports what Mike is saying. No conclusion can be drawn from them that relates performance to the categories found on the sheets.



In other words, take the sheets for those three products, and name 1 or more parameters, ie cleaning power, gloss/shine/wetness/depth, durability, bead formation, etc. Using ONLY the information from the sheets, excluding all other knowledge about the products, rank them under each of the chosen parameters.
 
Mike,



I'm curious to know what exactly which info was incorrect? I simply compared the two MSDS that were current at the time. I know Meguiar's has a penchant for changing labels based on shifts in the atmosphere, and the change to the NXT MSDS didn't come as much of a surprise.



Heck, I have 3 tins of Gold Class that claim different things - synthetic, synthetic blend, beading, sheeting, etc...similar labels on my Medallion bottles...



It's funny that the product in question received hype that approached rabid levels and we were all led to believe it was going to be the greatest gift to detailing. "No cleaners - none, zip, nada" was one quote...now we've found that wasn't exactly accurate.



"Longest lasting formula" claims the box (forgive me for paraphrasing, but I'm some 1500 miles from my NXT box) and after appearing to have died after 3.5 weeks (for me), that may not be true either. But now, as people (some critics, some fans) play with it, we're all learning more about it, which I think is great. I wish manufacturers and distributors wouldn't get so defensive over findings and discussions - heck, if I were a manufacturer, I'd see it as an opportunity to evaluate my product and I'd try to wring as much free "focus group" info as I could from the whole experience.



Understand, my passion is to learn things and to uncover truth in an industry that's full of hype and at times blatant BS. Your position is to assist with promoting Meguiar's products (be it through writing, training, or posting on the web), so in effect we're the North and South poles - we may not see eye to eye on things but we share a common passion - detailing.



I hate it when everyone takes my comments so damned personally. I'm not out to get anyone. If the MSDS are so critical and raise so much concern, aren't they accurate and telling? But if they're so "vague," then I can hardly understand how they're so "proprietary." It's funny how their relevance flip-flops...one minute they're meaningless and the next they're proprietary and damning.



I'm simply looking for answers. If I've said it once, I've said it 1000 times - we're talkin' wax, not world politics, right? It ain't worth gettin' all huffed up about...



I thought I had explained this before at SCG when the last huff was circulating re: NXT. It's obvious the product is important to big M and its assigns, or these little discussions wouldn't grow so out of hand.
 
Reading this thread reminds of reading Dino Oil vs Synthetic Oil threads in other forums.:D



Steve,



I think Mike's point is that you can't assume two products are alike because their MSDS states similar ingredients. MSDS as many know are simply there for hazmat purposes only and they must be readily available in case of emergency, but you already knew that.:)





ShowroomLincoln,



Excellent test! To take this same test a step further anyone want to try the same three products on a single stage paint?





To everyone debating on this thread IMHO we all need to take a deep breath and relax. It doesn't matter if a product has cleaning abilities or how it will layer. The important thing is how well the product protects your paint and how it makes it look. All other aspects are moot.:)
 
Actually, when I think about the MSDS sheets for MPPP, #20, and NXT, perhaps they do demonstrate something. One can perhaps see a design philosophy there, a Meguiar's way of designing sealants.



An analogy would be car manufacturers. German cars are different from Japanese cars. Hondas are different from Nissan in ways that are recognizable. Different cars from one manufacturer share a common design philosophy but can have very significant differences. The same idea applies to these products. Yes there are similarities but there are also very significant differences that may make one of them appeal more to an individual than the others.



Nobody should be surprised. It's a Meguiar's product, made the way Meguiar's makes them, for people that like products that are made that way, and now have 3 to choose from.
 
Gents, back to your corners.

Right when I give the signal, I want you to come to the middle of the ring, touch gloves and keep it clean! That means keep your punches up!



GeekySteve - As I deal with MSDS for a lot of products in the company I work for, believe me you can manipulate a lot of different products to say *almost* whatever you would like. I can show you 8 identical MSDS's for 8 completely different products. Generalising product groups is an easy way to keep proprietry info a secret. Even your source, sizing, granulometry and solution strengths ( moles ) of raw materials plays a huge part in the products performnace and is info that an MSDS doesn't necessarily impart.



Mike - there were a number of posts where it was stated categorically that there were no cleaners in the NXT, so I think there is a generally level of disappointment that there, on the face of it, seems to be. I for one am very disappointed, I was hoping to go NXT as a LSP over my 3xSG, but it seems that this is not a viable option. And even though you yourself said it was beauty first, durability second, it seems that the claims on the bottle by marketing are a little over-hyped on the face of initial testing by autopians?



EDIT



By the way, fantastic write-up SRL! Very interesting and useful info. Id be MOST interested if you could run the NXT over the Z2 and SG to verify if it will strip the bottom layer. :xyxthumbs
 
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