"Loose Change" - 9/11 Conspiracy by Dylan Avery

This reminds me of the "We didn't go to the moon" conspiracy theories which have been thoroughly debunked.



I have a question for the theorists: If the government DID create these incidents, why would they "warn Rumsfield not to fly commercial" ? You would think they would know what was going on and just not select those planes. You can't have contradictory conspiracy theory now.



Some simple answers to some of the 'mysteries' posted on the site:



“I heard a very loud, quick whooshing sound. I was convinced it was a missile. It came in so fast – it sounded nothing like an airplane.�

- Has anyone heard the sound of a jet airplane at max speed 50 ft off the ground? Aren't we used to heaing the much lower speed of a landing/take-0ff. I submit the high speed would make a vastly different sound and would give you much less time to assimilate the sound in the first place.



"How does a Boeing 757, constructed from lightweight aluminum, penetrate over 9 ft. of steel reinforced concrete?"

- How does a tornado drive straws thru telephone poles? We have all seen these kind of pictures. Speed. High speed collisions can create some strange things. Traveling at more than 450 mph, the airliner was far faster than a tornado. Secondly, the airliner would act much like an arrow. Those of you who hunt know that an arrow penetrates very well, they will pass thru sandbags that stop bullets due to the physics of their construction, distribution of mass, etc.



"Why did a FOX News employee, who witnessed the second tower attack, report seeing no windows on “Flight 175� a commercial United Airlines jetliner? Why did another eyewitness report that United Airlines Flight 175 was not a commercial airliner? "

Have any of you ever witnessed a very emotional event in a group and discussed it later? Heck, just think about sports. Two people can watch the exact same play and each can have a very different perspective of exactly what happened. This plane was thousands of yards away, moving at a high rate of speed, after an EXTREMELY emotional event (the first strike). I bet you could probably not get every witness to agree the plan was banked left when it hit (see the video). With the banking of the plane, it is possible that the windows would not be visible from many vantage points. Remember the windows are on the top half of the fuselage and you would witness it from 80 stories below anyway.



To echo other comments, Why would the government do this? Where are the passengers?

And again, the number of people to pull off this conspiracy theory send me back to my #1 argument for any massive conspiracy....................

It would be impossible for that many people to keep their mouths shut for so long. It's just human nature. Someone would have 'hard' evidence and would have exposed it by now.

Oops, I forgot my own conspiracy theory, the pyramid hit squad scheme to eliminate witnesses. :lol
 
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JBM said:
It would be great if this was found to be a bunch of b.s. , but is anyone steppig up to prove any of this wrong?
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You don't prove things wrong; you prove them right.



Like I said, the shiny car in your driveway is a fable, not there and not yours... now prove me wrong. Because no matter what you say, I'm going to offer up some other (entirely plausible) absurdity that you have no counter for, and as you counter that I'll throw out others.



This stuff is all a series of dubious allegations with absolutely no proof whatsoever. The standard method is to present a series of dubious allegations and allow a gullible audience to draw the lines among them.



If you want to prove it, you don't say, "Why was the passport of one of the alleged hijackers found intact on the street?". Instead you find out who planted it there, and how. If you want to allege that a missile hit the building rather than a plane, you don't offer, "People say it didn't sound like a plane, and some people say they didn't see any windows." Instead you find out who manufactured the missile and from where it was launched.



There is a reason that stuff isn't forthcoming. Because of the conspiracy to suppress it...? Nope. Because it isn't there.



You can trot out conspiracies and coverups to explain ANYTHING. But who are you going to believe; conspiracy theorists, or your own lying eyes (and common sense)?
 
SpoiledMan said:
...and please, anybody, explain to me what happened to the wings and engines of this so called airplane.



I'm with you Sean. Something about the "plane" that crashed into the Pentagon S T I N K S !
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I am with yall on this one also, the conspiracy about the wtc is fishy, but the pentagon is freaky! 10 tons of engine is going to make a dent, and as for the plane sticking out, what about the parts of the pentagon 3 tiers inside that were damaged?
 
Mosca said:
This stuff is all a series of dubious allegations with absolutely no proof whatsoever. The standard method is to present a series of dubious allegations and allow a gullible audience to draw the lines among them.
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Perfectly stated. If you do a google search with any series of words like "911" "conspiracy" "coverup" etc... you'll come up with hundreds of thousands of links. (Look at the link I provided that showed Lennon was killed by the FBI). Furthermore, you do a google search with keywords "911" and "israel" and "Zionism" and you have thousands of links that say the IIsraelis did it!! This theory is the accepted one on the street in the Arab world.



What these people do is ask questions and then make assertions with no proof to show that their assertions are true. Just because questions are not answered the way you want them to be, or just because a picture doesn't look like the way you think it should, doesn't mean you then take a retarded leap of faith and conclude that the "government" did this. It's absurd.



I'm still waiting to hear who in the "government" thought to do this, planned, coordinated, recruited, and executed this.



Setec was right - you rip spammers and their 1 year lasting waxes, but you believe this baseless, no evidence allegation. You're a prisoner of your own imagination. It's the same as people who think they've seen aliens and UFO's. Its convenient that movies in the 1950's showed flying saucers and little martians and then everyone looked up into the stars every night and the sightings sky rocketed, and those who claimed to see these things described them just like the movies! Even the pictures you see are of saucers like in the old movies before ANYONE ever described seeing flying saucers. Do another google search on UFO's and the same crack pots have hundreds of thousands of links.
 
Since this instantly turned into a debate here (didn't think it would be of this magnitude), I decided to reflect on some of the things stated...



Scottwax said:
We need a tin hat smilie.
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Spilchy said:
That was probably one of the worst, dime store, pathetic conspiracy attempts out there. That hackneyed, hip hop drone in the background made it even more annoying and immature. Interpretations of grainy videos by - and interviews with - marginalized, left wing conspiracy theorists are not worth their weight in spit. Until someone whistle blows and comes forth with the plans by our “government� to carry out this attack (as insane, preposterous, false and completely lacking in evidence as this may seem) then people should refrain from insulting their intelligence by watching this mindless drivel put together by some dopey college kid. He takes the littlest things that can’t necessarily be explained (in his view) and then makes the stupid leap and skips off on his trip through the Land of Oz to meet up with Dorothy and Toto for tea.
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Spilchy said:
It's utterly insane to believe otherwise. Or do folks just despise Bush so much that in just 6 months into his first term, you believe he plotted this?! The CIA? The NSA? The FBI? Congress? Or was it the various elements of the LAPD who had conspired to frame OJ Simpson? Thank goodness he was found innocent. I also heard "they" blew up the levies in New Orleans during Hurricaine Katrina.





Why don't you see this talked about anywhere in those settings? Because there's no truth to it. You think everyone is oblivious to this and somehow this video is the missing link? The Holy Grail?! The truth that explains 9/11?!



If so, it would NOT be relegated to some politcal agenda oriented Internet documentary put to the tune of some acid jazz DJ that is worshipped by conspirators.
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Scottwax said:
Are you sure your ultra-left wing professor's aren't having an undo influence on you? ;)
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wlhump said:
These clowns will do anything for a story no matter the final impact.
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Pontman43 said:
:shocked :lol

WOW, our government is out to kill us!!! I cant believe people would actually believe this, unless you smoke a whole lot of pot and believe every conspiracy theory around. (I have a friend like that, its funny listening to his reasoning)

I didn't watch the whole thing, but what was their reasoning for the government involvement?

And who are these people talking? How do we know that they aren't just the people who are making the conspiracy? I like the flying instructor who they dont prove was that guy's instructor or anything.

Go watch Farenhype 9/11
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These were taken from just the first page of this thread.



One thing I have been coached on thru-n-thru in college is to leave emotion, opinions, and sarcasm at the door. Bringing these to the argument will only fuel the fire more (in a negative way) and weaken your message in the eyes of the spectators. For this thread, it has done just that.



Comments referring to the music in the documentary, tin hats, tin foil, insanity, etcetera have absolutely nothing to do with a "real" debate. They are just elements of how you let emotion get the best of you. Other than FalconGuy, I haven't seen anybody really try to justify how the documentary was "incorrect".



Regarding the post by Mosca, the only actual thing that is "fact" or "able to be proven true" is gravity; if you want to get scientific about it. Stepping aside from it in outer space, gravity is always constant. Everything else can be argued, hence what we are *trying* to do here.
 
I can't help but mock that. I think it only strengthens my argument because it shows the stupidity of those who believe it. I too spent 4 years in college as a double major with many graduate level courses in political theory, philosophy and the like under my belt. (Scottwax's response was spot on as far as I'm concerned because I lived through it). All our comments have everything to do with the "debate" because if this were brought up in any formal, respected, academic setting, those who believe this hog wash would be made fools of. It's utterly baseless because there is no evidence. It basically raising questions and then making assertions without proof.



You can raise the same questions and make the same assertions about whether or not the Holocaust ever happended. I've read some pretty heavy stuff found in similar settings as this dopey "documentary." Ofcourse it's nonsense. Or that Tom Cruise knows more about psychiatric medecine than those from Harvard or any medical board. Yeah, excercise and take vitamins and you'll cure one's mental ills. What a moron. But people believe that.



I'm sorry, but not everything can be argued, because I don't believe everything is relative.



I'm off to go see Syriana now :)
 
To be honest, conspiracy or not, nobody here can prove or disprove anything - you simply have to go with what your mind tells you, and so long as you state that as your OPINION and not FACT, then we'll all get along swimmingly.



I remember 9/11 well - I was on a boat in Dingle Bay, Ireland, looking for Funghi the dolphin, but that aside, there was one thing that always stood with me that day. When I saw the towers collapse, the first thing I said was - that's not possible.



I studied Real Estate at uni and we looked at building collapse, specifically disproportionate collapse, whereby the floors below are compromised resulting in the collapse of the floors above. Considering the height at which the impacts occurred, there's no way in a modern building that it would have caused the entire structure to collapse - not without any assistance anyway. Sure, all the floors above the impact will have collapsed and the force of them falling may have taken a few (maybe two or three) floors below out, but for them to take the entire building down (especially so soon after impact) - not a chance. The buildings had the strength to hold all these floors up for the 30 or so years before the impact - that impact and the resulting collapse of the upper floors would not cause the 90 or so floors below the impact to collapse like a pack of cards and in such a controlled manner. And don't come at me with all the "jet fuel melted the steel" arguments - for it to have collapsed diretly floor upon floor, it would have had to have melted the steel in the basements - and that's just not possible from where said fuel was deposited.



But anyway, that's my OPINION. At the end of the day what's happened has happened and if there is a conspiracy then we're in it just as much as you guys considering Blair is Bush's lap-dog...



Ben
 
I forgot to add - the joy of a conspiracy theory is that the debate around it becomes a conspiracy itself - in effect, a vicious circle. Unless you are 100% in the know and have the hard evidence to back it up, THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER.



Ben
 
Like I said, the shiny car in your driveway is a fable, not there and not yours... now prove me wrong. Because no matter what you say, I'm going to offer up some other (entirely plausible) absurdity that you have no counter for, and as you counter that I'll throw out others.
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That would be fine, because the gov then would have planted the memory, so you are in a round about way proving my point.





If you want to prove it, you don't say, "Why was the passport of one of the alleged hijackers found intact on the street?".
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I was allowing room for people to draw their own conclusions, because there really is no way, out of all the passengers on the plane, a passport of a hijacker makes it into the possession of an fbi agent. There certainly is a possibility of it happening, but there is also a possibility that Cali is going to fall into the ocean.



There is a reason that stuff isn't forthcoming. Because of the conspiracy to suppress it...? Nope. Because it isn't there.
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There was a flash or explosion before both planes hit the WTC, there was a hole in the Pentagon less then 20 ft. wide, there ware no remains of the plane outside the pentagon, there was a book on a table inside the pentagon without any burn marks on it. The book is a good one, considering the fire from these planes are supposed to melt through steel, even though the steel supplier guy says it wont.



I have no idea what the answers are, and the questions raised from the videos really dont change my opinion of politicians or the gov. it only re-enforces them.
 
BenP said:
To be honest, conspiracy or not, nobody here can prove or disprove anything - you simply have to go with what your mind tells you, and so long as you state that as your OPINION and not FACT, then we'll all get along swimmingly.



I remember 9/11 well - I was on a boat in Dingle Bay, Ireland, looking for Funghi the dolphin, but that aside, there was one thing that always stood with me that day. When I saw the towers collapse, the first thing I said was - that's not possible.



I studied Real Estate at uni and we looked at building collapse, specifically disproportionate collapse, whereby the floors below are compromised resulting in the collapse of the floors above. Considering the height at which the impacts occurred, there's no way in a modern building that it would have caused the entire structure to collapse - not without any assistance anyway. Sure, all the floors above the impact will have collapsed and the force of them falling may have taken a few (maybe two or three) floors below out, but for them to take the entire building down (especially so soon after impact) - not a chance. The buildings had the strength to hold all these floors up for the 30 or so years before the impact - that impact and the resulting collapse of the upper floors would not cause the 90 or so floors below the impact to collapse like a pack of cards and in such a controlled manner. And don't come at me with all the "jet fuel melted the steel" arguments - for it to have collapsed diretly floor upon floor, it would have had to have melted the steel in the basements - and that's just not possible from where said fuel was deposited.



But anyway, that's my OPINION. At the end of the day what's happened has happened and if there is a conspiracy then we're in it just as much as you guys considering Blair is Bush's lap-dog...



Ben
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Thats my opinion also. Its impossible.



I really dont care if anyone believes me either, what worries me, is no one questions the gov., thats scary.
 
I have seen the statement that "the jet fuel melted the steel" several times on this thread. That is not what the experts have ever said occured. The high temperatures from the burning jet fuel and other flamables inside the buildings weakened the steel structure. At temperatures well below the melting point of steel, the steel loses significant strength. At the temperatures of the fires from the jet fuel, it loses something like 50% of its strength.



I beams and columns are fabricated in that shape to minimize the steel involved while still providing the requisite strength. However, the cross-sections are very thin. The combined loss of strength from the heat itself, along with the deformation caused by the heating would cause the beams and columns to buckle. The heat would cause the steel to lengthen, and with the load of the entire upper building above it, it would have no where to go but to buckle outward. Its like loading a straw, you could stand on several of them on end as long as you loaded them evenly and they did not experience any bending. However, tap the side just a slight bit and bam, your on your a#$!



Now, as an engineer, we do overdesign items to varying degrees based on their critical nature, risk for injury and unknowns in the design (called appropriately 'factors of safety') but I would feel that the structure of the building was not at a 200% factor especially when you consider the substantial damage to the support structure from the impacts themselves.



This would cause the upper floors above the impact zone to pancake down on the damaged floors. (Creating the "suspicious puffs" of debris as they fell. You can't tell me you have never dropped a board on a dust covered surface and choked on the resulting cloud :lol ) This means the remaining structure below the damaged floors had to withstand not the normal loads, but impact loads which will be several times the load they were normally expected to carry. This creates the chain reaction collapse we witnessed.



Take some time to read the anti-conspiracy sites. Their explanations make far more sense than the inuendos on the mentioned video. Take some time and examine each "claim" by itself, there are logical explanations for each. However, if you just want to read inuendos with no attempts at explanations as to why these items must be true, have at it. :xyxthumbs
 
GSRstilez said:
These were taken from just the first page of this thread.



One thing I have been coached on thru-n-thru in college is to leave emotion, opinions, and sarcasm at the door. Bringing these to the argument will only fuel the fire more (in a negative way) and weaken your message in the eyes of the spectators. For this thread, it has done just that.



Comments referring to the music in the documentary, tin hats, tin foil, insanity, etcetera have absolutely nothing to do with a "real" debate. They are just elements of how you let emotion get the best of you. Other than FalconGuy, I haven't seen anybody really try to justify how the documentary was "incorrect".
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What real debate did you expect, Sean? The video isn't really worth serious discussion. I don't understand how you can take it so seriously.



Like it was pointed out earlier, if there was something to all the allegations, you'd have reporters from the New York Times, Washington Post, et al working day and night to prove that our government was behind 9/11 especially because it lead to the downfall of President Bush. It has been 4 years since 9/11 and not one person behind this alleged conspriracy has come forward. Don't you find it odd that something of this magnituded that would require thousands of people to participate could be kept secret for 4 years? Don't you also find it hard to believe the Bush administration could have coordinated the 9/11 attacks just 9 months after he assumed office? Also, why would he? What is the political gain?



And yes, I do feel that college professors do try to push their political leanings onto their students. My older boy has been less than pleased with how much liberal agenda has been forced down his throat by a couple of his professors.
 
Thanks for the explanation wlhump. I saw a show on the History Channel with engineers that created a mini model of what you explained as well as explaining the pancake effect of the tons of concrete flooring formed in perfect squares of equal weight falling from the top down. I watched the second tower come down while standing on a street corner.



Scott, your son isn't alone. As a history major at Indiana University I dealt with same thing. It was infuriating and students ate it up hook, line and sinker.
 
Spilchy,



I was a bus major at IU, took history classes but found the Psych dept was way past the history dept in trumpeting a particular world view.



Sam
 
[/I][/QUOTE]
One thing I have been coached on thru-n-thru in college is to leave emotion, opinions, and sarcasm at the door. Bringing these to the argument will only fuel the fire more (in a negative way) and weaken your message in the eyes of the spectators. For this thread, it has done just that.[/
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I]



I believe they also teach you in college to use a critical eye when evaluating a hypothesis. That seems to be lacking from your review.
 
Sherman8r44 said:
Hell, I go to high school and the teachers are even more liberal and irrational than the students!
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LOL!!! That is the way my old school was. Now I have a government teacher that doesn't express bias opinions. I couldn't believe it!
 
I haven't seen the video.






you'd have reporters from the New York Times, Washington Post, et al working day and night to prove that our government was behind 9/11
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That 's because you (Americans) have been programmed to believe that the US has freedom of press - Every form of media is controlled.



Don't you also find it hard to believe the Bush administration could have coordinated the 9/11 attacks just 9 months after he assumed office? Also, why would he? What is the political gain?
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According to the conspiracy people there is a much larger plan at work then the left/right party. Supposedly there are 300 people who control everything that happens on planet earth. None of them are presidents.



The so called police state that was predicted 15+ years ago is here. Especially since 9/11.



I grew up in a communist country and unfortunately I am seeing a reflection of it right here in the US. Again, especially since 9/11



I just want to live my life and be left alone, so I don't support either side, but in the early 90s I used to get a newsletter from COSMIC AWARENESS COMMUNICATIONS and their so called channeled info predicted that in 10 years "terrorism" will be a household word. Those newsletters can be ordered today to verify. Now that part of their mambo jumbo is interesting to me.



As far as Bush - seeing him sit in the classroom & his facial expressions after being told what has just happend - I still can't believe my eyes. That is the president of the United States? Hmmmm...... Sad indeed.



Also Bin Laden's family was able to leave the country according to that movie - is that true Scott? And how do you explain that?



PS: I loved your recent details, but I was away from my computer for a week.
 
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