If you were forced to use OTC products...

I decided to skip all of the crybabying, so forgive me if i've missed this already.



But here's a challenge to anyone out there. Come over, and bring a car. We'll tape it off halfway down the car.



Bring whatever you want, and when you get here we'll go to the local pep boys and buy me some stuff. Whatever they have.



I guarantee that my side of the car will look just as good, if not better.



It's about the process, not the products. I've used kit wax and a couple of random swirl removers/polishes that my friends have had in their garage, and gotten results that have made their jaws drop.



If you properly prep a car, the products just become tools. And a skilled carpenter can do the same job with any hammer.



Some of the OTC products I use, all of which i've bought at local stores:



S100 (available at any motorcycle shop)

S100 cleanser

3M fine cut

3M SMR

meguiars #26

meguiars natural shine

NXT paste

Gliptone Platinuim (may only be available on the east coast... but it's in pep boys)

Turtle wax tire gel

armor all tire foam (wheel wells)

a2z wheel cleaner

stoner glass cleaner

nxt car wash



Really.... I fail to see the drop off in quality from OTC to boutique. The above products stand up to anything any of us have used.
 
Before last year, 3M had some of the best polishes available. I think their new products have fallen way off and no longer perform. 3M is off my list of OTC products. :(
 
DavidB said:
Before last year, 3M had some of the best polishes available. I think their new products have fallen way off and no longer perform. 3M is off my list of OTC products. :(
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has fine cut changed? I still have a few older bottles left, but consider it to be one of the best compounds ever.



I'd cry if it changed...
 
blackntan said:
I decided to skip all of the crybabying, so forgive me if i've missed this already.



But here's a challenge to anyone out there. Come over, and bring a car. We'll tape it off halfway down the car.



Bring whatever you want, and when you get here we'll go to the local pep boys and buy me some stuff. Whatever they have.



I guarantee that my side of the car will look just as good, if not better.
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Are you saying you detail better than anyone else? So what happens if you tape the car off and do both sides yourself with two entirely different sets of product?



blackntan said:
It's about the process, not the products. I've used kit wax and a couple of random swirl removers/polishes that my friends have had in their garage, and gotten results that have made their jaws drop.



If you properly prep a car, the products just become tools. And a skilled carpenter can do the same job with any hammer.
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Though I agree that process is what good detailing is all about. I believe that in essence you are saying that product has nothing to do with superior final results. I cannot agree with the blanket statement you are making here. I can't tell for sure if you are calling someone/everyone out by saying your abilities are beyond anyone else's abilities or if you are claiming that if YOU were to detail a car with two different sets of products there would be no difference in the final product. It kind of comes across as you can turn out a better job than anyone else regardless of who they are or what they use. That would be arrogant.



As confident as you are with your detailing abilities, I am likewise confident in saying that all preparation being equal I can tell the difference in the end result of different products. I am not saying that an over the counter product can't produce great results anymore than I am saying that all boutique products produce excellent results. There are good products and bad products in both worlds.



All this aside, looks are only part of the equation. Durability and ease of application are important to some also. Sorry not all products are created equal and some of the better products might just not be OTC. By the way you won't see many carpenters framing a house with a ball-peen or 4 lb. sledge hammer, tools absolutely make a difference in the final product.
 
No, i'm not saying any of that. Well, not directly aimed at anyone here, at least.



However, I will say that the knowledge that i've gained here has helped me to perfect the process of clarifying, cleaning, and protecting paint on a car.



While I do believe that there are products that are better suited to different paint types and colors, I think it's arrogent to say that you can tell the difference between products on a car. There's no way you can walk up to a car that's just been waxed and tell what product is on it. It's just not possible.



You might be able to walk up and tell that a black car was waxed with something that has made it shiny instead of deep, but there's no way to know exactly what product is on it.



Side by side, you may also be able to tell in the difference between a product, but only if you're using two products that are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum, like Zaino and Natty's blue for example.



But I'll give you $100 if you can differentiate between #26 and Natty's on a car that's been identically prepped prior to those steps. It's just not possible.



With that said, if you follow a process, (ie: clay, med compound, fine compound, polish, wax) and you do it right, you will get great results.



I don't care if you are using turtle wax and 3M, or sovern and optimum polish, if you follow the process correctly your results will show.



The reason I am offering up the challenge is not because I think I can detail better than anyone else, but because I believe there is a process that produces results. And I believe that I can follow that process well enough to show that the products are a minor part of the equation.



and i'm not emitting durability and ease of application in my decision making process either.



Find me a product easier to apply than s100 or #26. I'm not having any durability issues with the waxes I use either, and have had fantastic results with Gliptone Platinuim. NXT paste isn't doing too bad for me either.



As a matter of fact, even though i've spent TONS of money on boutique products, the only ones that I really keep going back too are Natty's Blue and Chemical Guys Laserbuff. Everything else has an OTC counterpart that fits the bill just fine...
 
blackntan said:
There's no way you can walk up to a car that's just been waxed and tell what product is on it. It's just not possible.



You might be able to walk up and tell that a black car was waxed with something that has made it shiny instead of deep, but there's no way to know exactly what product is on it.
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So true. :2thumbs:



And the fact of the matter is although some claim durability and ease of use is important in product choice it still falls short of the very most important sought after trait -- SWIRL FREE GLOSS.



I agree that it would be impossible for anyone to truely distinguish what product is being used on a vehicle. Split a vehicle in half and use soley Meg's products on one half while the other with the most popular boutique products on the other. You would never tell the difference.



What does that mean?



It means that people tend to believe that if a product is not available everywhere, is sometimes more expensive than others and has a fancy smanchy name, it is better. This scenario exists in many consumer products from clothing apparel to skin care.
 
blackntan said:
But I'll give you $100 if you can differentiate between #26 and Natty's on a car that's been identically prepped prior to those steps. It's just not possible.
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I'll take your $100 every time in this particular comparision, if you had said Natty's Blue and #26 I may not take your bet. The end result of these two products is very close. I had made a statement on another board just recently saying how close I believe #26 and Natty's Blue look. If you had said S100 and Natty's that too would be a tough task. My point is simple, I may not be able to look at a finished car and tell which particular product is on that car. After all there are products out there that I haven't even seen. What I can do in most cases is tell you which side of the car looks better at least to me. After all the way something looks in the eye of the beholder is what makes a particular product a favorite or a best. I'm always going to buy the products that work the best for me. What someone else thinks is of little consequence. You pick up what ever it is you like from Pep Boys and I'll walk in with the best I have (no matter whether it's boutique or over the counter). One of us would have to do the prep because as I said the prep must be equal, if you're the guy so be it and I'll tell you which is which and I believe you would see it too. I believe that was the spirit of your wager in the first place.
 
I have gone full circle in my product choices....starting out OTC years ago, moving to every (online only) boutique product you can imagine, and now back almost exclusively to OTC products again.



For OTC, I have found the Duragloss line to be unbeatable in value and performance. I have used nearly all of the boutique sealant lines and have found the DG products to easily perform at or above their level. I also like TW Platinum Ultra Brite T&W cleaner. Really the only product(s) that I haven't found locally to meet my expectations are swirl removers. Still have to order those...for best quality, IMO.
 
I'm not sure about NB vs 26 but 26 vs Mothers Reflections Topcoat is easily noticed. RFTC is much warmer and brighter whereas 26 is darker.
 
wannafbody said:
I'm not sure about NB vs 26 but 26 vs Mothers Reflections Topcoat is easily noticed. RFTC is much warmer and brighter whereas 26 is darker.
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My comment was that Natty's Blue and 26 are similar both darken the paint to some degree. Natty's regular not so much.
 
again, as I said earlier. Side by side, on the same car, you might be able to tell the difference, but only if they're on complete opposite sides of the warmth/shine spectrum. Of course you could tell the difference between regular Natty's and #26 side by side. They are as different as Zaino and Souvern... (but I did mean blue, just forgot to type it...)



But knowing that there are products on this spectrum, as long as you stick within the range of where you want to be, the products are interchangable.



Lets take Natty's blue, #26, souvern, and mothers carnuaba for example. You could not tell the difference between these if you did not know which one was used. Especially if the car was prepped properly.



Now, as professionals, or even weekend warriors, we all have our preferences, and we all know how certain products look, and we grow accustomed to this look. I for example, LOVE Natty's blue, NXT paste, and #26. I LIKE S100, Moose wax, and Meguiars #16.



However, if I just walked up to a car that had just been waxed, I could not tell you which product it was, even if you only used the ones in my arsenal. I could limit it to a category, like 'Shiny synthetic', or 'wet carnuaba', but I would not be able to identify a single product. This is where the process becomes apparent as the main component in achieving the shine.



Let's take three different product lines, but with the same process.



1: Menzerna IP, Menzerna FP, Natty's Blue

2: 3M fine cut, 3M SMR, 3M show car paste

3: Meguiars #2, Megiuars #9, #26



Which will look better? Why? The 3m set you could buy at pep boys, the Megiuars set is a little mail order (#2), and a little pep boys, and the 1st set is full mail order. But I guarantee that all three of these product line ups will produce a fantastic looking car. I've used every product on that list, and I know that they all perform. I know that they all produce results. And I know that with my personal preferences aside, the customers will all be happy with their cars...



All i'm saying is that OTC products are not inferior to boutique. It's all about preferences. If we all follow the right process, we could make a car look 1000x better using Kit and scratch x. It might not be our preference, but it will get the job done.



But there are a bunch of OTC products that hold their own and excel when compared to boutique products. There are some OTC products that outperform just about anything out there. To say they're inferior is not correct.



However, we all have the choice. Which is why they also make both vanilla and chocolate ice cream.
 
DavidB- Yeah, when they phased out the PI-III stuff they lost a customer in me...the PI-3000 stuff sent me looking to Menzerna/BF and Hi-Temp.



blackntan said:
has fine cut changed? I still have a few older bottles left, but consider it to be one of the best compounds ever.



I'd cry if it changed...
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If you mean PI-II FCRC (pn 39002 in the 16 oz. bottle), AFAIK it's still the same. It just happened to be OK VOC-wise (don't breath the dust though, its old-school silica abrasives can do an asbestos-like number on your lungs) so I don't believe they changed it.



Oh, on the "you-can't-tell" wax comparisons, I'd say that a lot of it has to do with what a person is used to seeing. I couldn't tell any of those products apart on *your* car, but my wife spots it right away when I use something similar but different on cars she's seen *looking a certain way* for years (she makes for a good blind test). When I switch stuff on her silver A8 she *always* notices- I thought I could substitute 476S for #16 but she asked about it right away. When I tried P21S instead of Souveran on the Jag we were both shocked by how different it looked. Had we not seen those paints looking a certain, consistent way for many years I doubt that we'd spot it either.
 
Yeah, i'm referring to the 39002. Dunno why I like it so much, but I do...



I really should start wearing a mask..



I agree that you can tell that the car looks different on your own car, especially if you've been using one product for a while. I believe the difference between P21S and Souveran would be HUGE, considering how different they are! Try Natty's blue or #26, and let me know how different they are from Souveran. You might notice some sublties, but I bet the look would be very close to what you're used too....



Another test. Have your wife pic a wax, and do just the hood of the car. Can you guess which one it was? Or just notice that it looks different than what you're used too?
 
A lot of the products I've been venturing out with lately have all been OTC. Only thing that is not OTC that I use all the time if paint correction polishes.



All this considering I have well over 700 dollars in boutique and professional grade products.



Wheels: A2Z, Mothers All Wheel, and Hot Rims (for those bad wheels that need acid)

Tires/Wells: Purple Power

Wash: NXT or Gold Class

Mitt: Eurow from walmart

Dry: Water Magnets

QD: EO Wipe n Shine

Glass: NXT glass cleaner or EO 20/20

Chemical Polish: ColorX

Wax: NXT, #26, and Collinite

Tire dressing: Meguiars Hot Shine Tire Spray (petroleum based) or Vinylex for (water based)
 
blackntan said:
Lets take Natty's blue, #26, souvern, and mothers carnuaba for example. You could not tell the difference between these if you did not know which one was used. Especially if the car was prepped properly.
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Natty's Blue and Souveran are two of my favorites and are a pair that I have personally tested side by side on several of my own vehicles, a variety of paint colors. I can not only see the difference, I can definitely feel it and I can tell you which is which. FourStar's UPP is another product that definitely feels different (slicker) than most other products.



I'm not arguing the point that process isn't what this is all about. I agree whole heartedly and I'm not arguing that you can't have a great job with OTC products. In fact I think we both agree that proper preparation is a given in order to achieve a great finish. I'm not even claiming that you have to spend more to get a better product. The only point that I've argued at all is the fact that I can frequently see a difference when two products are compared side by side, that's the only reason I took exception to your original post. That said there are certain products I favor based solely on the look of the product.



When I spend the time to go through and meticulously wash, clay, polish, wax/seal and dress a vehicle inside and out I want it to look as good as I can possibly make it. I've never been one who requires long lasting protection to make me happy with a product. I wax/seal and QD far too often for that to be a serious consideration. I figure if I'm going to the trouble (and I don't consider it trouble) to do the job I'll make it look as good as I can, period. I know without a doubt that there are many products I can buy to make a vehicle look nice and they don't have to cost a lot of money, some just look nicer than others. One other point of consideration, there are professional and boutique products that if bought strategically (to avoid freight or sales tax) or in bulk that cost virtually the same amount as many OTC products people buy while trying to save a buck. The fact that one buys it a the local AutoZone or PepBoys doesn't necessarily make it less expensive and it doesn't mean you get an inferior end result.
 
Go to a local car show. Look for the best paint. Ask the owner what he uses on his car. 9 times out of 10 it will be a OTC product. As a matter of fact the most used QD is Meguiars Quick Detailer.
 
blackntan said:
I agree that you can tell that the car looks different on your own car, especially if you've been using one product for a while. I believe the difference between P21S and Souveran would be HUGE, considering how different they are!
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Yeah, that might not've been the best example, though I've heard rumours that the two products are more similar than we might think.



Another test. Have your wife pic a wax, and do just the hood of the car. Can you guess which one it was? Or just notice that it looks different than what you're used too?
Click to expand...



Heh heh, getting my wife to wax the hood of a car would be a whole 'nother kind of test in and of itself :D Nah, I don't think I could tell what it is (with two exceptions: UPP due to its slickness and Souveran on the Jag), just that it was different. The only wax she can ID is Souveran, she calls it "the light wax" because of the way it looks on silver.



I agree that PI-II FCRC is good stuff. I liked the PI-III version a bit better but that's just me. Please do start wearing the proper mask though, this detailing stuff sure isn't worth dying over.
 
PI-III

Stoner Invisible Glass/NXT Glass Cleaner

Eagle One AtoZ (still use on cars not done that often, if I had to use it, I'd dilute it I think)

Lexol Leather Cleaner & Conditioner

Woolite Mix

Megs GC Wash

Armor All (for wells)
 
Accumulator said:
Sorry you're getting that impression (and I wonder if my post about going to autobody/paint supply places might've contributed to that :o ).



IMO (and I sure hope I'm right about this) the only people who get looked down on around here are those who act like jerks in one way or another. If you're getting the results you want from the stuff you use then you're doing A-OK in my book :xyxthumbs
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hey thanks alot man i appreciate it. it wasn't directed towards your comment at all..just the overall vibe in general



ah well im pleased with the results they give me!
 
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