How do you *trash* a product that you've never tried??

SpoiledMan said:
The point is that it looks like you don't know either but you will stand firm on whatever claim is made. Do you *know* that it's not just a rebottled product? I mean *know* and not just from what you think.
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Some companies purchase from Chem Wackie in Germany or other polymer and wax manufactuers. I don't know much about the industry other than what I've read as I work in another field. In reality the only people who know where stuff comes from is the person doing the purchasing. I suspect that companies use legal agreements to keep these kind of things from becoming public knowledge.
 
wannafbody said:
Some companies purchase from Chem Wackie in Germany or other polymer and wax manufactuers. I don't know much about the industry other than what I've read as I work in another field. In reality the only people who know where stuff comes from is the person doing the purchasing. I suspect that companies use legal agreements to keep these kind of things from becoming public knowledge.
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That's my point. It's laughable because there's no way in hell that I could just call him up and get an answer to who makes his products. It just wont happen.
 
The same question could be asked of Ultima, Klasse, JW, Duragloss, Optimum etc. Why just ask about Zaino? For years Zaino has performed above other products. There must be a reason why. Whatever the reason is that's why Sal has the repeat business he does. Otherwise he would have been last months flavor 15 years ago.
 
I'd like to pop in to this thread and offer my $.02 worth.



First, it is very common to compare two competing products side-by-side. In no way am I trashing any Zaino product. I have complete respect for Sal and the products he represents. Every Zaino product stands on its own as an excellent car care chemical. What I am presenting is my opinion of why Ultima is better.



It is 100% expected that I'm going to say Ultima is better than Zaino. After all, it's the product that was rated the #1 sealant by independent test.



Most of you don't know it, but I wrote most of the marketing material and how-to instructions on the Zaino web site up to the point that ZFX was launched. In the process of writing the material, I used the products on many, many cars. I had to. I had to be 100% familiar with all of the product ins and outs. Other than Sal himself, I'd guess no one knows his products better than me.



I still use the Zaino products. I test every new product Sal puts out. In the past 18 months I have put every product Sal offers head-to-head with the Ultima products we developed. If our Ultima product didn't perform better than Zaino, we went back to the lab. Trust me, making better products was not easy.



What I'm stressing with our Ultima vs. Zaino page is how much easier Ultima is to use (as a product line). I must not be the only one thinking this way, as we are converting a lot of guys who are tired of the long process of multi-step car care product lines.



In regards to the question "Who makes Ultima products?", the answer is Premium Finish Care, LLC owns the formulas and contracted with Four Star Products to do the manufacturing. We will have an event day in Sarasota, FL soon and will gladly provide a factory tour to all visitors.



db
 
wannafbody said:
Some companies purchase from Chem Wackie in Germany or other polymer and wax manufactuers.
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That's Dr. Wack Chemie. Homepage



EDIT: Hmmm...Dr. Wack has a WOWA product: A1 Ultra Minute Wax - s:37:



wannafbody said:
From what I've read I think he makes his own stuff.
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What does that mean? That he formulates it himself? That he makes the "secret" polymer ingredients that make his product different from others? That he blends, bottles and packages it "himself"? Those are all different things and require different expertise and facilities.



The Zaino "headquarters" is about 1.5 hours from me on a non-beach traffic day. I have been to the area to buy Zaino at Shore Motorsports (what Bill D calls "the pilgrimmage"; the only place we in NJ can buy the stuff). I have perused the Google Earth image of the "headquarters", and it seems to be a suite in a strip mall. Perhaps some day I will drive down there and verify.



Is Sal formulating and blending/bottling there? Could be. Is he making base chemicals? Highly doubtful less than 100 yards from a major traffic artery. Could he have a chemical manufacturing plant near by? Sure. Does anyone know the answers to this?



Ultima products were apparently developed by David B and Rick of Four Star. Does Four Star have its own blending/bottling facility? Do they have a base chemical manufacturing facility? (This was at least partially answered by David while I was writing this post.)



I have stated in other threads that I don't think any detailing product manufacturers make base chemicals. Even Meguiar's, who clearly has a large manufacturing facility, doesn't need to make base chemicals. They don't need to "invent" anything, there is so much more to bringing a product to market than that, including cost, marketing, etc. Coke doesn't need to "invent" anything to bring a new soda to market, they can just blend some different flavors, give it a neat name and bottle, and a clever ad campaign. If Meguiar's thinks they have a market for a better sealant, they can just put more active ingredient in it or buy a more expensive ingredient that already exists and price/market the product accordingly. It's pretty clear to me that the technology that makes Zaino CS possible is not exclusive to Zaino, or else there wouldn't be any other WOWA products. That's not saying that the WOWA chemical isn't new, or that something else hasn't happened that has suddenly made it more feasible to use (an expired patent, etc.)



Although I know a bit about manufacturing and niche marketing, I'm not a chemical guy, so perhaps my musings are way off. I know there are several members here who work in the chemical industry, perhaps they will chime in if the childish remarks in this thread haven't scared them off.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I have stated in other threads that I don't think any detailing product manufacturers make base chemicals.
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This is exactly correct. We take chemicals made by Dow, 3M and others and create new chemicals. It costs millions to actually create a new base chemical.



Creating a "product" from base chemicals is no less of a science than creating the base chemicals. Knowing what chemicals to mix to get a desired result is what car care chemists (chemical blenders) do. Often times there is a very delicate balance between chemicals e.g., not enough drying agent and the product streaks, or too much drying agent and the finish looks dull.
 
DavidB said:
Creating a "product" from base chemicals is no less of a science than creating the base chemicals.
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I understand and appreciate that. I think some members don't understand that they are separate activities.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
...I have stated in other threads that I don't think any detailing product manufacturers make base chemicals. ...
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I would think 3M would.



DuPont probably makes detailing base chemicals. They make just about everything else. Of course, they don’t make detailing products.



Tenneco must get at least some of their base stock from DuPont. Since no.7 (Cyclo) still makes the old DuPont line they probably do too.



Wow, am I way off the original topic or what? Sorry about that, SpoiledMan.





PC.





edit: aha, I was right about 3M
 
the other pc said:
I would think 3M would.



DuPont probably makes detailing base chemicals. They make just about everything else. Of course, they don’t make detailing products.



Tenneco must get at least some of their base stock from DuPont. Since no.7 (Cyclo) still makes the old DuPont line they probably do too.
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Yeah, of course you're right about 3M and DuPont, I just wasn't thinking about them as "detailing product suppliers" in the context of Ultima and Zaino.



PS It's Cyclo that owns the No. 7 line? Will wonders never cease! I have a can of some No. 7 that's at least 20 years old that says Borden on it, I never realized that DuPont had let it go so long ago. Of course I have a 60's or 70's can of rubbing compound that's DuPont all the way.
 
DavidB said:
We take chemicals made by Dow, 3M and others and create new chemicals. It costs millions to actually create a new base chemical.
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That reminds me of one of the chemical company's commercial where their slogan was:

"We don't make a lot of the products you buy. We make a lot of the products you buy better."



I always thought that was a really catchy line.
 
Having worked in a body shop some years ago, I learned this isn't just limited to wax. For instance, most of the paints on cars are made by PPG, DuPont, and others. Some shop guys would argue about paint, tools, etc. Bluntly, it's retarded but that's what partly fuels competition.



Personally, I can care less as long as whatever is being used gives me the results I desire. for the most part, I have been using Klasse and Stoners Invisible Glass since I joined Autopia in 2001. But during the 6+ years I have been here, I have seen :argue: over crap like pads, microfiber towels, Zaino vs Klasse, and a whole bunch of crap that would make the average detailing guru spin his head and/or go crazy. Additionally, I still moderate detailing forums on other car sites and have a disclaimer about bashing products that bluntly states I will delete any thread doing that or even ban the person responsible.
 
How long have the ultima products been in beta testing and approx how many beta testers are there? Are they located in different parts of the country so the product could be tested in different climates? Have the products been tested in different seasons?



Anybody can test products in a controlled climate, but untill its tested in different environments as noted above how do you really know what you have?



TIA!
 
gmblack3a said:
But nobody knows or has tested the durability of ultima yet. It has been out on the market for what a month and its already the best product out there?
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That's a laughable statement at best. There have been plenty of beta testers on this board who can account for RDF49's durability. And well, if you want to discount their experiences because it was a beta product, I expect you to **** up about, "oh, my clear seal beta lasts 8 months and the final product is better blah blah blah." In fact, I can point you to a thread where SpoiledMan gets near a year in durability, in one of the harshest climates in the united(in city rated highest for ozone content parked next to a railway, and underneath a flight path amongst other environmental contaminants); As if beta's only exist is some magical zaino fantasy world.



Here, check it out, http://autopia.org/forum/click-brag/92504-beading-50-weeks-3.html , I'm sure you saw it before but were too afraid to post. Then again, maybe you'll just run back to your detailers club of banned autopians and cry about how we're orchestrating attacks on Zaino and the church of Sal. Waaaahhhhh
 
Dave any links to this independent study? I for one have never used either of these products. And I'll go out and say it Since my detailing career began back in 1994 I've never heard of any of these products. I would personally like to try both with complete unbiasedness (if thats a word). From what I'm reading (and this thread has taking about every possible left turn from the original post that one could possibly think of) Zaino has been around for awhile and Ulitima is new correct?



I'm used to a few select choices because they work and work extreamly well for me. hence why I've probably never heard of these products because I simply wasn't interested in getting caught up in market hype to always see who the new kid on the block was.



I think I would be a great independent study of sorts in the real world envoiroment. I'd be willing to purchase a selection of each if someone can tell me what they would like tested. I'll do a step by step per instructions and take as many pics as nessecary.
 
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