GM Quality Control

Mike, I just don't know how that person could be anything but fired. Aztec is a whole lot of poor use of cheap plastic. If it's going to be that bad looking it has to be fast as hell!



IMHO, the RR got better (whole lot of 7 series in those from what I understand) and the Bentley are a lot more "fun" to drive now. With the addition of the Continental GT the brand has become a common sighting these days.
 
Guys, calm down a little! GM's problems are a little more complicated than just that they rebadge some models



Well said! GM's current problem is very systemic. Yes, they build "boring" cars with not so great reliability. However, one of the big problems is their pension/health care cost for the present workers and retired workers/family is eating them alive. It is calculated that these costs add an extra $1500 to $2000 for every car that GM sells. Since GM seems to be incapable of moving their cars off the lots without significant consumer incentives, this extra cost is killing them. In contrast, Chryler has the same legecy health care cost. However, they do seem to make "fun" cars. They can sell their cars without deep discount.



I guess we as a republic need to have a healthy debate about national health care system. Currently, some old time big corporations (such as GM) are left on their own devices to provide health care benefit for their retirees while other industrialized countries do have some form of national health care system. Newer players such as Walmart do have very lousy health care benefit (who can afford it when you are trying to shave off the last pennies on your merchandise). Without some kind of national health care system, our manufacturing base is just not playing on the same level playing field. I must say it galls me to say this (since I am a kind of right-wing guy). But we really need to be pragmatic about issues like this. If this means a bit more tax for me - so be it. I don't want to live in a country where I have to surround myself in electried fences/molt trying to protect myself from the fellow have-not citizens. Of couse, I am also not willing to sign a blank check for a national health care system without making sure that there is no excessive drug benefit, fivorous lawsuits, and our fellow citizens getting healthier. As a country, we spent close to 13% of our GDP on health care and we don't even haveuniversal health coverage - this is stupifying!
 
I don't really care who rebadges what, doesn't matter to me.



Bottom line *for me* is why would I buy a cobalt over a civic? Or a G6 over an accord? There is no reason, period. GM's vehicles depreciate faster, the fit and finish is lacking, long term reliability/durability lacks, etc. I just don't see how the cars can even compete in the same category.



At the very least GM is going to have dig themselves out this hole, then work on their public perception. They *may* be building excellent cars, but when I see one, I think--it looks good now, but it will be a POS in five years. When I see a Honda, I think-- man all that and it is good for 200,000+ miles.



I wish GM would create a car that was at least on par with what other foreign manufacturers are making. I would love to buy American, but right now it's not there. People use to ask me why I don't support America with my car purchases. I tell them I do, I purchase foreign cars in the hope that we as Americans will eventually be forced to make a better car.
 
Well I sure hope they can get their act together. They have been missing products in the middle market for years. GM has to get it in their heads that they can't only sell light trucks and suvs, or corvettes. Honda and Toyota are killing them, and GM doesn't have enough good ideas to soundly compete with their products. Daimler Chrysler is also adding irritation by beating GM in their own strong area with their new "old school" cars. GM needs a fresh restart, maybe a regime change, or else they may need to consider filing for bankruptcy if all else fails.



GM DOES build reliable cars, however. I can personally attest to that. Their image of quality has taken quite a beating, IMO largely due to their past history of unreliable cars, most notably during the period of the eighties and even up to the very early nineties.
 
CarWeenie said:
Guys, calm down a little! GM's problems are a little more complicated than just that they rebadge some models



Well said! GM's current problem is very systemic. Yes, they build "boring" cars with not so great reliability. However, one of the big problems is their pension/health care cost for the present workers and retired workers/family is eating them alive. It is calculated that these costs add an extra $1500 to $2000 for every car that GM sells. Since GM seems to be incapable of moving their cars off the lots without significant consumer incentives, this extra cost is killing them. In contrast, Chryler has the same legecy health care cost. However, they do seem to make "fun" cars. They can sell their cars without deep discount.



I guess we as a republic need to have a healthy debate about national health care system. Currently, some old time big corporations (such as GM) are left on their own devices to provide health care benefit for their retirees while other industrialized countries do have some form of national health care system. Newer players such as Walmart do have very lousy health care benefit (who can afford it when you are trying to shave off the last pennies on your merchandise). Without some kind of national health care system, our manufacturing base is just not playing on the same level playing field. I must say it galls me to say this (since I am a kind of right-wing guy). But we really need to be pragmatic about issues like this. If this means a bit more tax for me - so be it. I don't want to live in a country where I have to surround myself in electried fences/molt trying to protect myself from the fellow have-not citizens. Of couse, I am also not willing to sign a blank check for a national health care system without making sure that there is no excessive drug benefit, fivorous lawsuits, and our fellow citizens getting healthier. As a country, we spent close to 13% of our GDP on health care and we don't even haveuniversal health coverage - this is stupifying!



Wow. A very astute post on a very worthwhile topic. Health care in this country is ridiculous, and it WILL come to a head at some point. We could go all night on this one. Yeah, legacy costs are eating them alive.
 
Yeah, I forgot to chime in on that one. Certainly not gonna help GM to introduce a PT Cruiser clone when the PT itself sucks.
 
Well, the PT Cruiser has been quite successful (I think), but it hardly needs a redux in the HHR. I don't really get the retro craze, although the Mustang is really well done (and of course, they emulated probably the best looking Mustang, ever). GM lost their stylistic leadership a long time ago, I guess in the mid-80's when Ford, who had traditionally just copied GM, struck out on their own with the Taurus, and GM then became the follower, rather than the leader. As has been mentioned, Chrysler has probably assumed the leading edge role in styling among the domestic brands.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
As has been mentioned, Chrysler has probably assumed the leading edge role in styling among the domestic brands.



That's a very sad state-of-affairs if this is the case (excluding the Viper). IMHO opinion ALL manufacturers have become generic in their styling. Hyandais and Hondas look like Merc, Nissans look like anything they can copy, and Mitsi's front end treatments just are plain ugly. :Geezx
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Well, the PT Cruiser has been quite successful (I think), but it hardly needs a redux in the HHR. I don't really get the retro craze, although the Mustang is really well done (and of course, they emulated probably the best looking Mustang, ever). GM lost their stylistic leadership a long time ago, I guess in the mid-80's when Ford, who had traditionally just copied GM, struck out on their own with the Taurus, and GM then became the follower, rather than the leader. As has been mentioned, Chrysler has probably assumed the leading edge role in styling among the domestic brands.

I agree, It seems to be the same ol same ol for GM. I believe they just started upping their warrenty periods which will help them out. Also from what I understand, the Cadillac Escalade is suppose be completely redone with some real nice state of the art components. They have also mentioned making the fit and finish more "European" with some real tight tolerances. Sounds promising and a step in the right direction. The Hummer line also has some nice fit and finish. (not the best, but good). I also know first hand that their parts inventory is being decrreased and some of the older parts are no longer going to be produced. In the past year there have been al least 6-7 key relays and parts from GM for my GN that have become completely depleted and impossible to get. Until afternarket products are made some of us with older GM cars might find it difficult to locate certail items.
 
blkZ28Conv said:
IMHO opinion ALL manufacturers have become generic in their styling. Hyandais and Hondas look like Merc, Nissans look like anything they can copy, and Mitsi's front end treatments just are plain ugly. :Geezx



Isn't everybody just out of ideas (or afraid to take risks) in general? Every movie today is a remake of an old one or of a tv show. Everything is a retro something. Is there no originality anymore? Or have we really just done everything already?
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Isn't everybody just out of ideas (or afraid to take risks) in general? Every movie today is a remake of an old one or of a tv show. Everything is a retro something. Is there no originality anymore? Or have we really just done everything already?



Mike, I hope this is not the case. I believe the bottomline pressures forces design restraint. Let us not forget safety regs and their restraints on design. It is a tough time to be innovative. :sadwavey:
 
Well, obviously everyone has their own opinions. I'd say anytime you make a generic statement about a company that produces probably 100+ different products, it will be accurate in some cases and not in others.



In regards to platform sharing, the midsize SUV is certain a case where they are quite similar. Though they do look different and have different levels of equipment. As for what GM did with Saab, it depends on your perspective. Saab was a company with quirky cars that loses money. Now with the 9-3 on a global platform, they actually have sales worth measuring. I suspect the 9-7 will help a lot too, in spite of being similar to other trucks. I don't quite see why similar is bad, though. You have 4 trucks that are similar in looks, content and price. So you can choose which subtle tweaks you prefer, and the cost is about the same. How is that horrible? Granted it's not the only formula a car company should use, though.



One interesting point was about the feel and isolation/etc of Lexus vs Toyota. In this case, what should GM do to emulate that? Make one version of their shared platform crappier so to widen the difference? This is basically what you are saying is true of the Camry compared to the ES. It is less good. Well, what if the cost difference to make the Camry nicer (sound insulation, whatever stuff you said) was minor, since they already do it? What if they bumped the Camry up to be nicer, and the ES/Camry difference was mainly about small things like subtle looks and such? Would that be stupid for Toyota to do? Should they intentionally keep the Camry down so it won't impinge on the ES? You can load a Camry up to about the same price as a base ES. What's the differentiation there then? Is this a bad thing? Or is it just a choice buyers can make whichever way they see fit?



I personally feel that keeping vehicles within the company from competing with each other is stupid, and has kept GM back for years. Make the cars the best you can at whatever price/feature point you are looking at. If it competes with an upper scale model, awesome! Just think of what a value that car is then! If Buick can make a car on an existing platform, meaning the car will be nicer for less money than a new platform, why shouldn't they? Just because Pontiac makes a similar one? The cars aren't the same, and the buyers aren't the same.



Would it be better if GM combined two similar cars into one and sold 400,000 a year, or had two different yet similar cars that sell 250,000 a year each? Look at GM's Chevy and GMC pickup truck sales compared to the F-150. The F-150 is the best selling model, but would GM be better off with that level of sales for their full-sized truck platforms? No way...



GM's midsize sedan sales are the same way. Combining them all would simply reduce sales and give them one successful "model" vs 5 models that don't lead in sales, but when put together make GM the biggest seller of automobiles in the US.



In regards to the HHR, the PT Cruiser actually sells fairly well. You can also see the double-standard here. The HHR is always picked at in auto rags for being a copy of the PT. I'd think the important thing is, is it a nice car, and is it better? Where were the similar comments when the Ridgeline came out? Aren't all japanese trucks just copies since the US was already in those markets? Does that mean it's lame or dumb? Isn't it smart business to make a new product that competes in an area another company is dominating? Maybe GM should have made the HHR sooner, but getting in that market isn't dumb if it creates sales and brings in money.
 
Aurora40 said:
I personally feel that keeping vehicles within the company from competing with each other is stupid, and has kept GM back for years.



This is a peeve of mine, as well. I think the most annoying thing about it is not so much that some divisions are not allowed to compete with others, but that within divisions as well. GM seems to think that best-equipped = largest car. This isn't universally true, and varies from year to year and with new-model introductions, but frequently the "flagship" car, i.e., the biggest one, has the most available features. To me a Cadillac or a Pontiac should have a certain feature set; it shouldn't be dependent on the size of the car--some people like smaller, some bigger. There are always going to be some features that are easier to cram into a larger car, but GM seems to go out of their way to maintain a measured feature increase as the cars get larger. Maybe all the companies do that, but I was broswing the Acura website, and they seemed to have a lot more consistent feature set thru their 3 sedans, a lot moreso than you would see at Pontiac from G6 to GP to Bonneville (oops!).
 
Meh, not reading all 7 pages. My comment is the Malibu is an example of GM's problems. It might as well say 'rental' in 12" high letters down the side of the car.
 
Scottwax said:
Meh, not reading all 7 pages. My comment is the Malibu is an example of GM's problems. It might as well say 'rental' in 12" high letters down the side of the car.





Short, simple, and incredibly effective. Pretty much sums up my thoughts....just about everything they make seems to be very the same old watered down thing...the "rental" analogy is perfect.
 
Let us just face it. The majority of cars and trucks being designed (copied in most causes) all look alike except for their badging, tricks and gadgets, company grille treatment and advertising scams.



Back in the old muscle car days (60's) uniqueness in design was less important than how fast the vehicle was. Everyone knew that the GTO was a Tempest, Mustang a dressed up Falcon, Barracuda a Valient, the 442 a Cutless etc. Today's buyers want things like head-up displays, dual climate control, heated seats, 40 miles per gallon, 18" wheels, fake ground effects, bread box size hood scoop, rear wings, etc. in a vehicle that looks like a up-scale priced vehicle. Honda and Hyundai imitate Merc's, 350Z looks like a cross-bred Porsche and Audi TT coupe, 300C is a Bentley, etc.

When a designer steps outside the box we tend to call his/her design ugly (i.e BMW 7 series). This forced BMW to step back in line from a more functional designed rear treatment and not change the 3 series.

Because of this retro-styling is working and innovative designing has been put on the backburner until the buying public is ready.
 
Being unique, trendsetting, and different was what used to bring customers to GM's showrooms. In terms of american cars during the sixites, with models such as Tempest, Lemans, Chevelle and Cutlass; Riviera, Toronado, Catalina and Impala, as well as other GM models, each had a different styling flair in comparison to one another. All of those cars above shared platforms with other GM division models, but the variation of body accents, trim, options, and pitch to different markets was what helped propel and maintain GM's #1 spot in the US. Ford and Chrysler actually copied some of GM's design cues after a certain model was released. GM's various model stylings during that period (I dare say thru 1976) evoked excitement and anticipation of the next style update or re-design.



GM as of late has a much different view of design of automobiles. They have been punished for their generic approach to car design, which IMO began with their downsizing edict from 1977. GM had also been saddled with poor quality of workmanship in a scattering of models, so much to the extent that the memory of failed models and powerteams (Diesel, The Cadillac variable cylinder detonation technology from '81) remain as a passive image of GM cars, despite the considerable improvement in quality of build and reliability of their current models.



The issue remains that GM simply doesn't have enough interesting models to compete with its competitors such as Honda and Toyota. GM must address this with a resounding surge of new and interesting products. We've all heard the advertising schemes with Buick and Chevrolet, promising a new "evolution" or "era" of well designed cars; It remains that we have yet to see anything that can effectively turn Toyota and Honda customers toward GM showrooms. It is a tough pill to swallow, but it is a reality that GM must come to grip with in order to realistically devise and execute a strategy for success.
 
blkZ28Conv said:
When a designer steps outside the box we tend to call his/her design ugly (i.e BMW 7 series). This forced BMW to step back in line from a more functional designed rear treatment and not change the 3 series.



But Edwin....the new 7 series is UGLY!



Look at Nissan, the G35 coupe and 350Z are different, new and stunning to look at.
 
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