Finishing with a Rotary

[Lumadar]

I guess I am crazy, but I have always thought the FLEX was an absolute blast to use, mostly because I felt it was very smooth and easy to control.



Admittedly, I just took a class on the rotary and used it for the first (and only time, so far) last week, but I thought it was harder to control than my FLEX. (Granted, I only got to use heavy cutting wool and I was working on the rear pillar at an odd angle...)



My Makita arrives Friday so I will be trying it out this weekend and can't wait to get the comparison.

 

[imported_d00t]

To do what?

To basically make the paint shiny! If they want something that gets rid of some swirls, and makes it a little more shiny then just a wash/wax. Would ZPC or ZAIO be a good product? Any other AIO?



Because mot of us can agree that while we wished every customer would want the perfect paint, a driving force for us is those maintenance washes where they just want decent looking paint that had relatively good shine.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

To basically make the paint shiny! If they want something that gets rid of some swirls, and makes it a little more shiny then just a wash/wax. Would ZPC or ZAIO be a good product? Any other AIO?



Because mot of us can agree that while we wished every customer would want the perfect paint, a driving force for us is those maintenance washes where they just want decent looking paint that had relatively good shine.

I don't know how you can get rid of just "some" swirls, I would instead focus of polishing the paint to make it more shiny. This is where you come in and can educate the customer. :2thumbs::2thumbs::2thumbs:



However Poli Seal from Optimum maybe the ticket for you. I feel it is the best AIO available. It will correct and looks fantastic.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

While I don't have the type of clients that you do, no car leaves with "RIDS, SWIRLS, and IMO pad abrasions" (as you so nicely put it) that I work on. Period!!!



Where do you see RIDS?????

I am only answering your question honestly so that you can see the defects as I see them. I did not want to go into this Thomas and asked politely for you to remove your posts to help keep this thread on topic. However I do see some educational benefit to the question you asked so I will answer it.



I have highlighted the obvious RIDS with black arrows so that you can see them and learn to see them in light. They are easy to spot because of their infrequency. Traditional wash induced marring (which is caused by improper wash techniques and damage to the paint)is far more frequentin appearance because the damage is repeated more consistantly. To help you see the difference, think of it like this. If you are damaging the paint with your washing techniques then that damage will not be limited to several lines in the paint, but a more consistent pattern. Wash induced marring is often runs in all directions and is commonly referred to as swirl marks.



3 months after you polished the car there is no real swirl marks (again these would be consistent in nature and blanket the surface).

What I believe may have happened (as you did in this case) when you go from a compound to a finishing polish is that the compound can mask the defects slighty (M105 for example). As you can clearly see by the nature of the damage (I highlighted with a green arrow for ease of viewing) in this picture is very conistent but not typical swirl marks, rids. This damage is often hard to see after polishing (because of the filling nature of the products used) but often comes back several weeks to months later.



I also took the liberty to highlight a sun ray (in yellow) so you can clearly see the difference between pad abrasion marring (which occured when you went from a compound to a finishing polish) to a finishing polish.

RIDS are usually the severe forms of wash induced marring. It is impossible to just get RIDS, so this would lead me to believe (considering for the most part the paint is swirl free) that RIDS have always been there and where likey filled and not corrected the first time. My goal is of course to help you improve so maybe you can learn from my experience! I hope this helps!!



Todd

 

[Todd@RUPES]

I don't know how you can get rid of just "some" swirls, I would instead focus of polishing the paint to make it more shiny. This is where you come in and can educate the customer. :2thumbs::2thumbs::2thumbs:



However Poli Seal from Optimum maybe the ticket for you. I feel it is the best AIO available. It will correct and looks fantastic.

Becareful with Optimum Poli Seal, because in my experience, it fills more then it corrects. If you are looking for a filler (which can be a good thing) then you may want to try something with more aggressive filling properties and it can make the paint look better. I do use Poli Seal in between details on clients cars because it fills nicely and is very easy to use, and covers swirls very nicely.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

I have a PC and a Makita rotary. I decided recently to buy a Flex, just for the heck of it. I used it once last weekend, and noticed some positives and negatives. The negative is that it is heavy...at least in my opinion. In terms of positives, It did have more power than a PC.



I was using a polishing pad and 1Z HG, and was getting a good bit of swirling out (yes I did a wipedown to check). I have detailed this particular car in the past with a PC, and it took 2 steps with the PC to accomplish what I was getting with 1 step on the Flex.



I will probably keep the Flex for customers that only pay for a 1 step polish.

 

[imported_shine]

Since using the rotary I have found out that, in most cases, I need to finish with a black/gray pad or softer not to get any visible holograms.

I have a PC and a Makita rotary. I decided recently to buy a Flex, just for the heck of it. I used it once last weekend, and noticed some positives and negatives. The negative is that it is heavy...at least in my opinion. In terms of positives, It did have more power than a PC.



I was using a polishing pad and 1Z HG, and was getting a good bit of swirling out (yes I did a wipedown to check). I have detailed this particular car in the past with a PC, and it took 2 steps with the PC to accomplish what I was getting with 1 step on the Flex.



I will probably keep the Flex for customers that only pay for a 1 step polish.

I have a UDM and rotary and have thought about getting a Flex for doing 1-steppers, or for those that only want an improvement in paint condition. I've also wondered this: Could the Flex do more correction than a rotary, in one step, due to not having the ability to create holograms?

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Since using the rotary I have found out that, in most cases, I need to finish with a black/gray pad or softer not to get any visible holograms.







I have a UDM and rotary and have thought about getting a Flex for doing 1-steppers, or for those that only want an improvement in paint condition. I've also wondered this: Could the Flex do more correction than a rotary, in one step, due to not having the ability to create holograms?

Possibly because a more aggressive product can be used with a more aggressive pad with out fear of hologramming (but with the possiblity of instilling micromarring, which most people don't see anyways). With a rotary, finishing with anything less then a finishing pad and polish leaves a large potential for holograms (or holograms/pad abrasions appearing.)



I have 1 stepped a silver Porsche with SIP and white pad. I was able to all of the swirls, some of the RIDS, and the paint looks good. I am positive that on a different color holograms woud be visible (the color masked them well) and the paint wasn't at the highest potential (more gloss would have been found by finishing down better). However the paint looked much better, I was honest with the client and explained my reasoning, and everybody was extremely happy.



The other opition for 1 step is to use something that fills (Megs M66 or D151, Opt Polyseal, Ardex Stereoglaze 2, etc) and explain to the client that you are removing most of the damage but you are also temporarily filling in some of the rest and they may need to have the product reapplied.



It can be hard to do (most of us on here want to shoot for perfection) and sometimes we don't want to dissappoint the client. They may not like that opition, but then again perfection takes time and you need to be compenstated for it.

 

[imported_shine]

Thanks Todd, that makes sense. Each client and their vehicle is going to be different, both in their expectations and the machine/pad/polish that will be appropriate.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

The other opition for 1 step is to use something that fills (Megs M66 or D151, Opt Polyseal, Ardex Stereoglaze 2, etc) and explain to the client that you are removing most of the damage but you are also temporarily filling in some of the rest and they may need to have the product reapplied.

Just be very careful with those because they could hide holograms too.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Just be very careful with those because they could hide holograms too.

They should hide holograms, but that would be the point (nothing wrong with that if you are working with in the limitations of your client or situation and you are open and honest with your client).

 

[Accumulator]

...RIDS are usually the severe forms of wash induced marring. It is impossible to just get RIDS.....

I'm not trying to take this off-topic but I just can't resist commenting on this as TH0001 and I hardly ever disagree



I *do* get only RIDS...with my wash technique I never get the usual wash-induced marring (and I mean *never*) but every now and then something gets pressed against the paint for a brief period and viola, a single RIDS.



Sorry...I'm just *so* into the whole wash-induced marring topic and how often do I get to :argue :nana: about something with TH0001 based on first-hand experience!?! Heh heh heh... (I trust this was taken in the light-hearted manner intended.)



OK...returning to the real topic at hand, I've heard about paints that are *so* soft that they can only be finish-polished via rotary (wielded by somebody who's *VERY* skilled, of course) as the PC leaves micromarring. Presumably this comes from the initial bite of the product combined with the PC's particular pad motions.



If *I* had a car like that, I'd sell it or get a repaint, but OK, that's not an attitude that a pro could resort to, so...



What about the *Cyclo* for jobs like that? I've simply *never* experienced any downside to finishing via Cyclo, it doesn't diminish the previously attained rotary-finished gloss or otherwise cause any problems. I dunno if anybody really *uses* the Cyclo any more (I think Anthony O. still does :think: ) but I'm curious.



The necessity of being able to handle all kinds of paint, and do it in a reasonable amount of time, is what *REALLY* impresses me about you high-caliber pros :bow



Oh, and yeah...as long as Mike Phillips keeps finishing out via random orbital I won't feel too bad about my own rotary skills IIRC, when *he* runs into stupid-soft clear he finish polishes with #66.

 

[David Fermani]

Excellent explanation. I also feel that an correction that starts with a compound(105)/cutting pad(wool) has to also get refined down in both pad and polish combos to create/retain full correction. Taking too large of a "jump" will create a void in refining.

I am only answering your question honestly so that you can see the defects as I see them. I did not want to go into this Thomas and asked politely for you to remove your posts to help keep this thread on topic. However I do see some educational benefit to the question you asked so I will answer it.



I have highlighted the obvious RIDS with black arrows so that you can see them and learn to see them in light. They are easy to spot because of their infrequency. Traditional wash induced marring (which is caused by improper wash techniques and damage to the paint)is far more frequentin appearance because the damage is repeated more consistantly. To help you see the difference, think of it like this. If you are damaging the paint with your washing techniques then that damage will not be limited to several lines in the paint, but a more consistent pattern. Wash induced marring is often runs in all directions and is commonly referred to as swirl marks.



3 months after you polished the car there is no real swirl marks (again these would be consistent in nature and blanket the surface).

What I believe may have happened (as you did in this case) when you go from a compound to a finishing polish is that the compound can mask the defects slighty (M105 for example). As you can clearly see by the nature of the damage (I highlighted with a green arrow for ease of viewing) in this picture is very conistent but not typical swirl marks, rids. This damage is often hard to see after polishing (because of the filling nature of the products used) but often comes back several weeks to months later.



I also took the liberty to highlight a sun ray (in yellow) so you can clearly see the difference between pad abrasion marring (which occured when you went from a compound to a finishing polish) to a finishing polish.

RIDS are usually the severe forms of wash induced marring. It is impossible to just get RIDS, so this would lead me to believe (considering for the most part the paint is swirl free) that RIDS have always been there and where likey filled and not corrected the first time. My goal is of course to help you improve so maybe you can learn from my experience! I hope this helps!!



Todd

 

[imported_DetailDan]

They should hide holograms, but that would be the point (nothing wrong with that if you are working with in the limitations of your client or situation and you are open and honest with your client).

I strongly disagree with that. I would never lower my standards and knowingly induce holograms in a clients car just because they arent willing to pay to have the job done right. I HIGHLY doubt you would do that either.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

"The necessity of being able to handle all kinds of paint, and do it in a reasonable amount of time, is what *REALLY* impresses me about you high-caliber pros " - Accumulator



I think there are several factors that in order to be a "Pro", you must accept.



First, you can't skimp on product. I am probably on the light side compared to a lot of these guys, but I carry 5-10 compounds, 20-30 polishes, and probably 20 different pad types (at least) to every detail.



Secondly, you need experience. Even if it isn't your own experience, having other detailers that you trust that you can talk to for advice helps a ton.



Next, there is technique. This is where practice and research comes in.



Lastly, I think one thing that is most valuable for EVERYONE from the once a year polisher, all the way to the Mike Phillips of the world is the "test spot". After washing and claying every car I work on, I tape off a 18" x 18" section, and dial in a method. If you can't make that section look good, there is no point in proceeding. Otherwise, you can potentially waste hours going around the car to not acieve the desired results, all to go back to the drawing board. I have seen many threads / posts on various detailing boards where guys complain that they detailed a car, and didn't get the results they wanted. Of course, this step requires you to use the previous items I mentioned (product, experience, technique).

 

[Bert]

I strongly disagree with that. I would never lower my standards and knowingly induce holograms in a clients car just because they arent willing to pay to have the job done right. I HIGHLY doubt you would do that either.

I think what Todd recently said and what Scott said earlier is, if a client doesn't expect 2 or 3 stage polishing and certainly isn't going to pay for it, don't give it to them. Either only give them the one stage polish and be upfront and honest with them explainging that a one step may induce holograms or turn down the job. So long as a detailer is completely honest with the customer from the start is the key should the detailer take the job.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

I think what Todd recently said and what Scott said earlier is, if a client doesn't expect 2 or 3 stage polishing and certainly isn't going to pay for it, don't give it to them. Either only give them the one stage polish and be upfront and honest with them explainging that a one step may induce holograms or turn down the job. So long as a detailer is completely honest with the customer from the start is the key should the detailer take the job.

I agree that you shouldnt do a 2 or 3 step if the customer isnt paying for it. However, I dont think you should induce holograms in a car. You can do one steps without inducing holograms. For example, use the D151 with a white or gray pad instead of using an orange pad. You should never leave a car in worse condition then it was. IMO, leaving holograms in a car that didnt have them before would be doing just that.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

I know that Todd can't ever be wrong, but he is.





1 - what you have highlighted with black are chips!!!!!!!!!!!!!



the whole front was going to be repainted - I took the pictures in front of the body shop.:welcome:welcome:welcome:welcome:welcome



As user name pointed out above, you may think that you are the best detailer in the world, but in this case I may be better at using HTEC with PFW than you are. On very hard paint I can work EC until it looks almost lsp ready, minus the holograms.



Speaking of being the best:



Just look how dirty you left the brake caliper

here is another example for you of your own work

Just look at the dirt left behind by Bella Macchina

And I can't really leave this one out: - do i need to highlight the marring?????

MODS/PAT: I am done with Tood in this thread, thanks.



I think my above post is very educational for people to see. I think we can all learn at least one thing from it!

 

[Todd@RUPES]

I know that Todd can't ever be wrong, but he is.





1 - what you have highlighted with black are chips!!!!!!!!!!!!!



the whole front was going to be repainted - I took the pictures in front of the body shop.:welcome:welcome:welcome:welcome:welcome



As user name pointed out above, you may think that you are the best detailer in the world, but in this case I may be better at using HTEC with PFW than you are. On very hard paint I can work EC until it looks almost lsp ready, minus the holograms.



Speaking of being the best:



Just look how dirty you left the brake caliper

here is another example for you of your own work

Just look at the dirt left behind by Bella Macchina

And I can't really leave this one out: - do i need to highlight the marring?????

MODS/PAT: I am done with Tood in this thread, thanks.



I think my above post is very educational for people to see. I think we can all learn at least one thing from it!

The brake caliper thing has been explained (with a picture from the owner as well) Thomas. I believe his words where that anybody who thinks anything was on the calipers was dumb. The interior picture is wierd because I don't see anything at all on (except some dust which is typical when microfibers create static charge). Not sure of your point (at all) on that picture.



You are taking this very personal, when what you should be trying to do is improve your skill level. My exprience has been the more I listened, the better I have become, and better clients I could attract.



I have NEVER seen rock chips that forum straight lines

You posted a picture stating you skipped steps, and I pointed out that I could tell. I honestly thought that was the REASON you posted your picture!!!



Obviously it wasn't (I'm not sure why you did) but was suprised when you took it personal. I PM'd you apologized, explained the misunderstanding, and asked you to delete your posts to keep the thread on topic. Then you asked me where I saw RIDS. Was I not supposed to answer you? So I did what you asked for and you got more upset. I personally think this was a huge misunderstanding that spiraled out of control but I have tried to correct it several times. Now you are failing to make personal attacks. I'm sure the paint looked great when you where done (3 months prior) because you inadvertently filled some of the damage in. This is my "limited" experience with HTEC (fills like crazy until wiped down) and is "maybe" why the paint doesn't look too hot now.



The picture with the black is the same effect that you claim you get in your camera, only I don't see marring in mine



Also, I am sure you are better with HTEC because I only used it twice (the finish it left behind looked great until I wiped it down, then RIDS reappeared, similar to those in the Lotus picture) and was appaled by the filling characteristics it left behind. Definetly needed to be followed by a couple steps (in my opinion) to get the surface true. That is only my experience, and no where did I say I am better then you or did I say that I even think I am.



Again I tried to correct this because I saw you where taking it personal and it was NEVER my intention to offend you or be part of another thread (2 in 1 day) that took a downward spiral. I apologize to everybody who has read this because it is a sad way to see a potenital great thread turn up.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

I dont see any marring in that picture?