Finishing with a Rotary

[Todd@RUPES]

I see a holograms on the center of the hood and what appears to be PFW micro marring...



Of course all paints react differently but I typically don't see the type and amount of marring that you have on that car (even on vehicles that are washed frequently) even since I spent more time polishing and refining my process.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

I hate to tell you but that is not a hologram.

 

[Driven Auto Detail]

One of the things that experience has taught me (over and over) is that you cannot cut corners, you can only polish them correctly. I know a lot of people think I charge too much (fair enough) because I get atleast 1000 for most paint corrections, but again, my experience has taught me that it takes time (and a lot of it) to get true results consistently.



So the problem arises, the client only wants to spend so much (say you charge 50/hr and the client wants to spend 300). This limits you to two steps (time wise). Do you hit hte paint hard with a compound and try to finish it down (running the risk of having a lot of garbage reappearing) or do you do two milder steps that will not remove all of the deeper defects (but will help protect against hologramming)?



I cannot answer that because I struggle with that situation daily, but keep in mind it takes time, patience, and experience, and MORE time to do the job correctly. There ar no short cuts.



I would probably do two mild steps and not take any chances. Sometimes we shoot outselves in the foot by trying to do too much. If perfection starts at 500 (or whatever) then for 300 you are going to get much less then perfection. Why should I risk my reputation because I am limited (by whatever factors) on the time I have.

Great post Todd. It's nice to hear these kinds of issues from the people we look up to as detailers.

 

[Bert]

I remember about a year ago, everybody was buying the Menz line and even novices with rotaries where finishing "hologram free" like using a rotary is easy. The truth is that it is very difficult and filling possiblities (unknow at the time) of Menz made a lot of people think it is much easier then it really is.



Even a lot of the Meguiars pro's recommend finishing with a DA (Mike Phillips for example, who imo, is a God with a rotary).

So in your opinion, for someone who is an hobbyist detailer who has just recently upgraded to rotary use, they will be OK using the rotary for paint correction/cutting but when it comes to polishing and finishing, they probably should put down the rotary and reach for their cyclo/PC/UDM/or Flex until they get plenty of experience with the rotary under their belt?



Last October when I polished my 2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse I went from SIP on PFW straight to 106ff on LC Black and so far no hologramming that I can find in the summer sun. However, two things may have helped me reach that point. 1) The paint is hard as a freaking diamond so that probably greatly limited the holograming in the first place and 2) the car is white so any hologramming that does exist, it is probably near impossible to see. Does this theory seem reasonable to you?

 

[imported_sal3291]

Lots of great info in this thread, thanks everyone.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

I hate to tell you but that is not a hologram.

Thomas I don't want to argue with you because I like you and don't want it to look personal but that picture in my opinion (and the obvious marring in the paint) is a direct result of skipping a step. You may say that it is marring that has been reintroduced but in my experience it is marring that was filled.



Also, that doesn't look like wax streaking (since it radiates in several directions), and looks like micro marring from pad abrasion (not really holograms since it will lack the 3d effect) that have come back. I could be wrong as pictures never tell the truth, but if more time was avialable for you to polish I think the results would be different in your photo 3 months later.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

So in your opinion, for someone who is an hobbyist detailer who has just recently upgraded to rotary use, they will be OK using the rotary for paint correction/cutting but when it comes to polishing and finishing, they probably should put down the rotary and reach for their cyclo/PC/UDM/or Flex until they get plenty of experience with the rotary under their belt?



Last October when I polished my 2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse I went from SIP on PFW straight to 106ff on LC Black and so far no hologramming that I can find in the summer sun. However, two things may have helped me reach that point. 1) The paint is hard as a freaking diamond so that probably greatly limited the holograming in the first place and 2) the car is white so any hologramming that does exist, it is probably near impossible to see. Does this theory seem reasonable to you?

Hi Bert.



It is a double edged sword because if you never try to finish with a rotary and attempt to improve your skill doing so you will never get better at it. I think it is up to you to determine your goals. If your goals are to get better finishing with a rotary then that is what you should do and take the good with the bad (like any pro should) and learn from it all. That is the only way to imrpove.



There is nothing wrong with finishing with a DA (but the orbital action will rob a little potential gloss) at all. This is assuming that both are finished to the highest potential possible.



On a white car it is going to be very hard to impossible to see the type of pad abrasion effect (which Thomas picture of the Lotus that I cropped seems to show). Pad abrasion is like an ultra fine hologram that really isn't a hologram because it doesn't appear 3 dimensional. On white I have never seen it but....



Every paint is different. It is very possible that you finished the paint of to it's highest potential (or close to it) and that is that (because of the hardness and individual nature of every paint). Each paint will system will tolerate different things and the same recipe for one paint is differnt then the next but for the sake of arguement lets assume that some pad abrasion does exist...



This means (even if not visible on white paint) the paint is not at its highest potential. Just because we cannot see something does not mean that it is not robbing the paint of some gloss. Scratches (of any size) act to defeclt or refract light. The flatter the surface at the microscopic level, the more the paint reflects, and the more total gloss we see. It is all a matter of how OCD we are willing to be (or how OCD we are paid to be in the case of pros).

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Do you really think that I would look at the car in direct sunlight and:



1 - not see/know that there are holograms in the paint?



2 - if there were holograms in the paint I would actually take pictures and post them and not instead tell the client that I need to fix it????



Come on Todd!!!



I think that you are taking your "expert" thing a bit too far.



Ther are no holograms on that hood.





What you see is some tricks my camera maybe doing.



Like this picture: It just picks up light in a weird way. this panel is mint, but



someone may think that there are holograms in there.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Do you really think that I would look at the car in direct sunlight and:



1 - not see/know that there are holograms in the paint?



2 - if there were holograms in the paint I would actually take pictures and post them and not instead tell the client that I need to fix it????



Come on Todd!!!



I think that you are taking your "expert" thing a bit too far.



Ther are no holograms on that hood.





What you see is some tricks my camera maybe doing.



Like this picture: It just picks up light in a weird way. this panel is mint, but



someone may think that there are holograms in there.

That panel looks fine(blue car). What I see in the hood of the Lotus is a lot of fine little marks (dots)in the rays themselves and that is not from the camera nor is it typical of wash induced marring. I'm not going argue (like I said) with you and if you are happy with the results and your clients are happy then that is all that matters. :bigups



I don't think that I am taking anything too far, I am just trying to provide honest feed back from my experiences so that others who want to improve can do so.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

I don't think that I am taking anything too far, I am just trying to provide honest feed back from my experiences so that others who want to improve can do so.

So are saying that others are not providing HONEST feed back????:nixweiss:nixweiss:nixweiss I really hope not.



You are really beginning to sound like you are THE ONLY SOURCE when it comes to detailing.





REALLY SAD

 

[Scottwax]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't believe in 1 stepping with a rotary. If you are pressed for time, or constraints from the customer's budget, use the Flex.

You can 1 step with a rotary but you won't get much more correction than maybe a PC using an orange pad and a polish. I've used (on a seal grey 335i) Optimum Poli-Seal with a blue Propel finishing pad @ 1000 rpm which took out some very light spider swirls and then buffed off with OCW. This was back in late December. When I repolished the car in June, the car was still absolutely hologram free. Same on a few others, though I repolished them sooner than the 335i. Ultrafina and the Ultrafina pad will also remove minimal swirls or marring when 1 stepping.



I do agree that to get any serious correction you are absolutely going to need a minimum of two steps.



I am considering buying a Flex to give me more cut than a PC for customers who just want 1 polishing step. Do you think you could remove up to moderate defects on most paints with 1 step with the Flex?

 

[Thomas Dekany]

You can 1 step with a rotary but you won't get much more correction than maybe a PC using an orange pad and a polish. I've used (on a seal grey 335i) Optimum Poli-Seal with a blue Propel finishing pad @ 1000 rpm which took out some very light spider swirls and then buffed off with OCW. This was back in late December. When I repolished the car in June, the car was still absolutely hologram free. Same on a few others, though I repolished them sooner than the 335i. Ultrafina and the Ultrafina pad will also remove minimal swirls or marring when 1 stepping.



I do agree that to get any serious correction you are absolutely going to need a minimum of two steps.



I am considering buying a Flex to give me more cut than a PC for customers who just want 1 polishing step. Do you think you could remove up to moderate defects on most paints with 1 step with the Flex?

I have a flex and I'd suggest to save your money.

 

[Scottwax]

IME, finishing is ususally more reliable going from foam to foam, if that makes sense.

Amen to that! It helps that #105 will remove a lot of defects even with a yellow Meguiars polishing pad, definitely makes it easier to polish out any holograms left behind. Wool pretty much guarantees 2 or 3 additional finishing steps for me.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

So are saying that others are not providing HONEST feed back????:nixweiss:nixweiss:nixweiss I really hope not.



You are really beginning to sound like you are THE ONLY SOURCE when it comes to detailing.





REALLY SAD

Thomas this getting off topic and I can only speak from my experiences. Do think you are not being honest? Not at all. Do I think you telling me that I am taking the "expert" thing too far was wrong? Yes, because I don't think when it comes to a passion you cannot take anything to far(with in reason of course). The better I become (thanks to this forum) the better I want to become. Also Expert is a realitive term. To my clients I am an expert, but to a lot of other guys (like on this forum) I am just a guy sharing information, and that is how I would prefer it so please do not insert words that I don't say because you disagree with me.



However I strive every day to become better then I was the day before and I think that a lot of information given by some people doesn't match my own experience. It doesn't make anybody wrong or right (myself included). I am only providing a counter point that experience has taught me. I am too busy learning to be a source of anything other than my own experiences.



The Lotus picture shows marring, period. I can see it (RIDS, SWIRLS, and IMO pad abrasions) and so can anybody who looks at it. In MY EXPERIENCE, this can be greatly reduced (with in reason, we cannot control how paint is washed after we are done) by taking the time (if it is avialable) with each step and trying not to skip a step if we can.



You are free to disagree with me, but you are getting personal, and this is a learning forum. I am just as open to learning from you as you seem to not learn from me. Please don't take this thread further off topic.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Amen to that! It helps that #105 will remove a lot of defects even with a yellow Meguiars polishing pad, definitely makes it easier to polish out any holograms left behind. Wool pretty much guarantees 2 or 3 additional finishing steps for me.

Me as well.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Amen to that! It helps that #105 will remove a lot of defects even with a yellow Meguiars polishing pad, definitely makes it easier to polish out any holograms left behind. Wool pretty much guarantees 2 or 3 additional finishing steps for me.

Must be my style but I have it the opposite way. Of course I am talking about the PFW pad. It always leaves very little behind that needs correcting. However, regular wool needs 2 extra steps for me.

 

[Scottwax]

the car is white so any hologramming that does exist, it is probably near impossible to see. Does this theory seem reasonable to you?

Trust me, you can absolutely see holograms on white. :nervous2:

After #105

After #105, OC

At that point, I felt it was quite safe to finish with Ultrafina. The sun angle had changed way too much at that point to get any good shots. I could definitely see the difference in between steps while working it though.

 

[Driven Auto Detail]

I have a flex and I'd suggest to save your money.

+2



I went from PC to Cycle to UDM and tried to go to a rotary but just wasn't comfortable with it. I bought a Flex, used it a few times and then decided to just learn the rotary. Now, I really don't use my Flex. I sold my Cyclo and my UDM broke. Now, if I'm one-stepping (say Poli-Seal), I grab the PC. If I'm doing correction, I grab the rotary and finish with the PC. I'll probably end up selling the Flex that now I don't use it.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

And further Thomas I have been nothing but humble on this thread. I have admitted what I have done wrong and what I have done to correct it. A lot of professional detailers who do not have my recongnition (which I may or may not deserve) never admit to making mistakes and act like they are the best and experts. They never admit to learning or becoming better. They never ask questions.



This thread is going to do three things (depending on how it is viewed).

1) Convince people I am full of crap (which is fine because bodyshop Adrex users think that anyways)



2) Convince people that I suck and cannot finish out with a rotary because I have been open and honest (again fine because I would be scared to look at the work they do.)



3) Convince people that I am more concerned about helping people then I am of what they think about me (which is my take, but maybe I'm wrong)



My goal (regardless of my delivery) has always been to help people on this forum because with out this forum and help I recieved I wouldn't have such a great job that I love doing. It is the challange of it and the fact that I have such a long way to go before I will be happy with my results.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Trust me, you can absolutely see holograms on white. :nervous2

After #105

After #105, OC

At that point, I felt it was quite safe to finish with Ultrafina. The sun angle had changed way too much at that point to get any good shots. I could definitely see the difference in between steps while working it though.

Hollogramming and pad abrasion mircomarring are slightly different effects. I have a hard time seeing the ultrafine pad abarasion on white (as well as very faint holograms). Those holograms where bad (which you can absolutely see on white)