Did Zaino Blow it??

Shiny Lil Detlr said:
The word "Zaino" attracts the harsh critics and hardcore devotees like no other single word in the detailing industry :grinno:
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:LOLOL



I don't think it's just the word, although it does tend to perk people up, but how some use it in here. burlyq seems to think he's found a miracle LSP and can now bypass having to put a true LSP on. I say good for him anf if that's what he's comfortable with then he should do that. It appears the vast majority don't agree with him though. :grinno:
 
A miracle LSP. If not the closest that any company has come. Since Z2 pro, ZPC and Z8 have arrived I only used the full process once. I just wash with Z7 and follow with Z8 and my car looks like it has had a detail. There is no better apllication for my needs than the Z system. I can't believe how rich and glossy my black car is , I always get compliments on awesome it looks. the best one was at a body shop, I dropped my wifes van off for some repair work and the guy's in the body shop said what the hell do use on your car? Zaino of course ! IMO nothing comes close to Z8, as far as protection, I really don't care using , having the best protection in the industry is just an added bonus. I also love Z8 on my rims, I use Z6 for the interior and door jams. No other product can generate this much attention.



Silicones! This is my experiance. I have been detailing cars since 1975 . My proucts of choice were:

Meguiars cleaner wax, #7, #16 #26 , collinite 845 , blue coral system ( old school) and something called starbrite polish. Well I had a 1985 black Monte Carlo SS and I got a deep scratch on the rear quarter panel so I go to body to shop to have it repaired. I get a call at work telling me that they can't keep the paint from fish eyeing. They asaked me what kind of wax did I use, I had been using Collinite 845 1-2 times per week because it kept my Monte shiny as hell. Apparentley the silicones seeped in and I had to pay a lot more to have repainted. The body shop told me that silicones although shiny and protective ( oily protection ) are not good for the paint. Iam I a chemist ? No, can I back this scientifically no. this is what more than one body shop has told me. And one of the body shop does all highend and show cars and their rep is awesome. Just my 2 cents.
 
Well Dogma I guess we will have to wait until all the OCW guys get their car painted if the silicone content will be an issue. Does anybody know of other polymer sealant sprays that DONT contain silicone or nuba?
 
The whole silicone thing reminds me of the whole anti-plasma TV argument that people used to use. Oh no, they said, plasma's have a half-life of only 60,000 hours. Who wants their TV to burn out, right? Well, 60,000 hours is like 13 years @ 12 hours a day, are you getting my point? Most people won't ever need to re-paint their cars, and even if they do it's unlikely silicones will ever be an issue for them (I'm sorry to hear you had an issue with them, dogma). Not using a product based on some slim chance that you'll have to have your car re-painted AND the silicones from products you use on it will adversely effect the re-paint is a little short sighted, imo.



I'm not trying to argue or anything, and I would certainly rather use a product I *know* is perfectly safe, but I think maybe there is some over-reaction here. Oh, and by the by, I like Zaino's durabilty a lot, I just never thought it looked that great on my black car, but that's just me.
 
Picus said:
The whole silicone thing reminds me of the whole anti-plasma TV argument that people used to use. Oh no, they said, plasma's have a half-life of only 60,000 hours. Who wants their TV to burn out, right? Well, 60,000 hours is like 13 years @ 12 hours a day, are you getting my point? Most people won't ever need to re-paint their cars, and even if they do it's unlikely silicones will ever be an issue for them (I'm sorry to hear you had an issue with them, dogma). Not using a product based on some slim chance that you'll have to have your car re-painted AND the silicones from products you use on it will adversely effect the re-paint is a little short sighted, imo.



I'm not trying to argue or anything, and I would certainly rather use a product I *know* is perfectly safe, but I think maybe there is some over-reaction here. Oh, and by the by, I like Zaino's durabilty a lot, I just never thought it looked that great on my black car, but that's just me.
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Makes you wonder. Figure all the body shops in each state and how many paint jobs they perform on a daily basis (whether it be a panel or a complete), then figure how many of those repaints only used "non silicone" based polishes and waxes and then figure how many successful repaints are done throughout the US on a daily basis and I think you have your answer as to the whether or not using a "silicone" based product will create a paint problem. There's no difinitive number, but I would venture a high likelyhood that the great majority of those cars have had silicone based waxes put on their vehicles. It's not the silicone that causes the problem, it's the process of which a reputable body shop goes through to make a quality repaint that eliminates it from being a problem. Guys like burlyq tend to go to the extreme over the silicone issue and it's their choice, but not really necessary. :hide:
 
94BlkStang said:
Makes you wonder. Figure all the body shops in each state and how many paint jobs they perform on a daily basis (whether it be a panel or a complete), then figure how many of those repaints only used "non silicone" based polishes and waxes and then figure how many successful repaints are done throughout the US on a daily basis and I think you have your answer as to the whether or not using a "silicone" based product will create a paint problem. There's no difinitive number, but I would venture a high likelyhood that the great majority of those cars have had silicone based waxes put on their vehicles. It's not the silicone that causes the problem, it's the process of which a reputable body shop goes through to make a quality repaint that eliminates it from being a problem. Guys like burlyq tend to go to the extreme over the silicone issue and it's their choice, but not really necessary.
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Lol blskstang, Let me just put it this way, there are enough detailing products that don't contain silicone so someone would have to be a du**y to want to use something that could damage their vehicle when THEY DON'T HAVE TOO. Many, many polishes and waxes promote that they are body shop safe FOR A REASON. My only issue is that if someone listens to your post and takes it to heart it is the blind leading the blind, silicone damage is a real thing buddy. Not as prevelent as it once was but some people might just prefer to not use silicone, if that's ok with you? :nono
 
Picus said:
The whole silicone thing reminds me of the whole anti-plasma TV argument that people used to use. Oh no, they said, plasma's have a half-life of only 60,000 hours. Who wants their TV to burn out, right? Well, 60,000 hours is like 13 years @ 12 hours a day, are you getting my point? Most people won't ever need to re-paint their cars, and even if they do it's unlikely silicones will ever be an issue for them (I'm sorry to hear you had an issue with them, dogma). Not using a product based on some slim chance that you'll have to have your car re-painted AND the silicones from products you use on it will adversely effect the re-paint is a little short sighted, imo.



I'm not trying to argue or anything, and I would certainly rather use a product I *know* is perfectly safe, but I think maybe there is some over-reaction here. Oh, and by the by, I like Zaino's durabilty a lot, I just never thought it looked that great on my black car, but that's just me.
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The reson I am not using a silicone based product is nothing to do with my past experiance ,its just that Zaino doesn't contain any. On black I have tried everything including expensive carnuba's and much prefer the look of a sealant especially Zaino.

Honestly if something contained silicone and made my car look the way I like I would use it. That warm look of carnuba I attribute to the sun heating up the oils that why it doesn't last, except collinite what ever they use won't go away it's like trying to wash off BENGAY

while its burning like hell.



And why its probably not a major concern of most people who go to body shops is they are not as anal as I am. Besides myself or most Autopians who so anal about the car's appearance? Who a normal person wax their car 2-3 times a week? That's what I did with my Monte 2-3 times a week with Colinite 845, anyone who has used it knows its greasy as hell,it also shines like hell! I am an extreme case a case of over kill.



Z8 has broken my habit. I still was my car every week and apply Z8 even if I don't drive it.
 
Burlyq said:
Lol blskstang, Let me just put it this way, there are enough detailing products that don't contain silicone so someone would have to be a du**y to want to use something that could damage their vehicle when THEY DON'T HAVE TOO. Many, many polishes and waxes promote that they are body shop safe FOR A REASON. My only issue is that if someone listens to your post and takes it to heart it is the blind leading the blind, silicone damage is a real thing buddy. Not as prevelent as it once was but some people might just prefer to not use silicone, if that's ok with you? :nono
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This is where you fail to see the light. The reason manufacturers make "body shop safe" products is so that they can be USED in a body shop safely, and the airborne particulates from the product don't cause problems in their system. Many primers and other paint related products are sprayed outside the paint booth and it could contaminate their system if used in the shop. Any good body shop worth their weight has no problem handling a car that has been waxed with a common off the shelf or boutique mail order wax that contains silicones. Your paranoia is your choice, but don't preach it as if it's the gospel.



As for your last comment if it's okay with me or not, I could really care less what you use. It was stated as such in my previous post so I suggest next time you respond to one of my posts, be sure to read it before you respond with a smart a$$ response. It's not me who's misleading the forum it's people like you that make arbitrary statements that silicones are bad without knowing what you are talking about. :hairpull
 
dogma said:
Well I had a 1985 black Monte Carlo SS and I got a deep scratch on the rear quarter panel so I go to body to shop to have it repaired. I get a call at work telling me that they can't keep the paint from fish eyeing. They asaked me what kind of wax did I use, I had been using Collinite 845 1-2 times per week because it kept my Monte shiny as hell. Apparentley the silicones seeped in and I had to pay a lot more to have repainted. The body shop told me that silicones although shiny and protective ( oily protection ) are not good for the paint. Iam I a chemist ? No, can I back this scientifically no. this is what more than one body shop has told me. And one of the body shop does all highend and show cars and their rep is awesome. Just my 2 cents.
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Regardless of the type of vehicles the body shop did, they obviously didn't know how to prep the paint. I have talked extensively to the owner of Mister Collision in Dallas and he has never had a fisheye problem with any vehicle he has painted. He sure didn't with mine and I had regularly polished and waxed mine with Meguiars #3 and waxed with #26. He had also repainted or repaired several of my customer's cars and I have yet to see a fisheye. :nixweiss



I took a paint and body class years ago and the teacher stressed proper wash down, some kind of solvent wipedown and rewash as a way to avoid fisheyes. I know the cars we painted that semester had no fisheye issues and that was with late 70s wax technology.



Now if you prefer to use products that you know don't have silicones, based on your experience, I certainly understand. I'd probably be worried about it too, given what you went through. However, I have a feeling it had more to do with the skill of the body shop than Collinite 845.



I definitely have to agree with you on Zaino's durability. AIO + ZFX'd Z2 x 3 on my brother's van in early December and here it is, September and it still beads and has a pretty good shine. That is 9 months! He runs it through the local tunnel wash every few weeks and I think he has used Quikshine on it 2-3 times during that period. Definitely not enthusiast upkeep yet Zaino still seems to be protecting his paint!
 
one point some here seem to miss is that one can't neccessarily know what real ingredients a product contains without looking at a MSDS sheet. A no harmful silicone statement is not neccessarily the same as silicone polymer free. As for using Z8 as a LSP, seeing that Sal dsoesn't reccomend it- I would suggest asking whether that approach is really in the customers best interest or whether the detailer simply used a product that was fast and easy.
 
I agree with Scott that regardless what has been used on the paint, it's a prep issue. There's all other kinds of things that can get on paint, especially if it has been in an accident, motor oil, trans fluid, coolant, brake fluid, fire extinguishing agents--it's the paint shop's responsibility to make sure the surface has been prepped properly for the paint to wet out, and to fix it if it's not ready, just like it's a detailer's responsibility to make sure his surface has been properly prepped for LSP. That's not to say that some cars may require more cleaning to get them ready for paint, and that some shops might not use a standard process that usually works, without really checking, and that they get burned occassionaly when one doesn't clean up right.



I think a lot of those body shop prep people might be compared to dealer detailers in experience and competence, so there you go.
 
94BlkStang said:
This is where you fail to see the light. The reason manufacturers make "body shop safe" products is so that they can be USED in a body shop safely, and the airborne particulates from the product don't cause problems in their system.
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LMAO, dude you are so lost it is funny. Yeah, body shop safe wax just in case the wax evaporates and causes problems with the ventilation system, you are killing me I am laughing so hard. So silicone is dangerous if it is in airborne particles but not if smeared directly on something? Do some research, umm try calling someone who makes body shop products, then appoligize for being wrong again. :LOLOL

Seriosly, Lol Lol Lol-- Since your having a hard time understanding I'll give you an example stangy.. This is a link, put arrow on it and click, scroll down and read.

http://www.bodymagic.biz/

http://www.auri.com/product_info.php/products_id/46
 
Burly, you took that one waaaay too far and ran with it. He's stating that the airborne particulate from products that aren't body shop safe would create problems within their refinishing system. I agree with others in saying that you're taking the silicone thing too far. Yes they could cause a problem if the areas to be refinished aren't prepped properly BUT that is up the the body shop to be sure that it is. I'm pretty sure you can't paint over Zaino or any other LSP out there.
 
To each is own Chris but newbies should know there is an issue with silicone products like Optimum Wax and they should do research before using stuff like that. Find out for yourself as opposed to taking the word of these guys. This post was never meant to be about silicone but Scott took it there when he brought a OCW into the thread. I was just pointing out that OCW, while yes a spray sealant, is a different than the polymer z-8 product. The same people who always mess up posts will continue to do so, but I will also keep sharing information. it wont be me hiding behind the couch when BlkStang makes his usual off the wall comments. Peace
 
Burlyq said:
LMAO, dude you are so lost it is funny. Yeah, body shop safe wax just in case the wax evaporates and causes problems with the ventilation system, you are killing me I am laughing so hard. So silicone is dangerous if it is in airborne particles but not if smeared directly on something? Do some research, umm try calling someone who makes body shop products, then appoligize for being wrong again. :LOLOL

Seriosly, Lol Lol Lol-- Since your having a hard time understanding I'll give you an example stangy.. This is a link, put arrow on it and click, scroll down and read.

http://www.bodymagic.biz/
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Your arrogance is only surpased by your ignorance. Of course "body shop safe" products are "smeared" on the body panels. I didn't think I had to explain the basics to you. Body shops need to polish and compound panels and thus don't want any products in their shop that may contain potential harmful products to the paint. That's what the are designed for, body shops. Not paranoid car detailers. The products are not only "smeared" on a vehicle, but in the process can easily spread in a shop as particulants while polishing or QDing. A simple fact that you seem to find funny for whatever reason. You seem to enjoy controversy and arguing. Not good characteristics in a forum that usually maintains a higher standard like Autopia. Your problem is you think you have all the answers and nobody can teach you anything. Don't you find it strange that you have very little, if any, support in this forum with your fear of silicone in products and that many, besides myself, have said that quality paint shops have no problem dealing with a vehicle that's been polished with a silicone based product when it comes to repainting? Have a nice night and continue to toss restlessly at night in fear of somebody lurking outside in your driveway spraying some silicone based QD on your car and ruining any chance of your car ever being able to be repainted. :LOLOL



Here's your answer burlyq. Taken from the first sentence in your link:



1990, Auto Wax Company, located in Dallas, Texas, began research on a brand of products formulated to meet the special needs of the body shop professional.



That's exactly what I said. They weren't designed for the detailer or the backyard enthusiast that needs to polish and wax their car, even though they would work just fine.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Burly, you took that one waaaay too far and ran with it. He's stating that the airborne particulate from products that aren't body shop safe would create problems within their refinishing system. I agree with others in saying that you're taking the silicone thing too far. Yes they could cause a problem if the areas to be refinished aren't prepped properly BUT that is up the the body shop to be sure that it is. I'm pretty sure you can't paint over Zaino or any other LSP out there.
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Thank you for understanding the point I was making. I apologize to those for the direction this thread has gone and my intent wasn't to get in a pissing match with burlyq, but when he calls me out as uninformed and spreading bad information I felt the need to at least defend myself. Thanks again spoiledman. :waxing:
 
You know Burly, you have started this and at least one other thread that wound up with people being banned, then you act like you had nothing to do with it (the controversy and name-calling). Now the "newbies" should do research before using any products because they may contain silicone? The entire car-care aisle at Pep Boys etc. could be renamed silicone valley...try going over to the Meguiar's forum and spouting that any products with silicone (like probably every Meguiar's consumer product) should never be used on your car. Get real.



I'd like to add to 94BlkStang's comment about products being "smeared" all over the vehicles in the body shop, or becoming airborne. It's more than that, contamination can come from anywhere, shop rags, tools, doorknobs. Some guy has product on his hands, wipes it on his pants, later leans against the car (or touches it with his oily hands) when he's masking something, presto, silicone contamination. So it's best not to have the (silicone-containing) product in the shop at all.
 
Burlyq said:
This post was never meant to be about silicone but Scott took it there when he brought a OCW into the thread. I was just pointing out that OCW, while yes a spray sealant, is a different than the polymer z-8 product.
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You brought the word 'silicone' into the discussion, not me. Go back and read the thread again if you don't believe me.



The reason I mentioned OCW is because it is a similar product, although probably with a lot better durability than Z8 because it is meant as an LSP while Z8 isn't. My only point was that many companies may be moving towards spray LSPs and with improving technology, they can be long lasting.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'd like to add to 94BlkStang's comment about products being "smeared" all over the vehicles in the body shop, or becoming airborne. It's more than that, contamination can come from anywhere, shop rags, tools, doorknobs. Some guy has product on his hands, wipes it on his pants, later leans against the car (or touches it with his oily hands) when he's masking something, presto, silicone contamination. So it's best not to have the (silicone-containing) product in the shop at all.
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True story. My brother's brand new truck got hit with hail 3 months after he bought it. He had only washed it, never waxed it, nor did the dealer. Regardless, the crappy body shop he took it to left his truck with a horrible fisheye problem...not to mention runs, sags, peeling paint, severe overspray, nasty orange peel, etc.
 
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