100% carnauba ??????????

I hate to break it to you, but #1 yellow is not the highest grade available. White, as I've stated in my post above, and in the accompanying links to references to white carnauba, comes from virgin pale yellow carnauba. When it gets manufactured into car wax, it is termed as white carnauba. The name is confusing, because, of course, the carnauba that's grown isn't pure white. However, pale yellow carnauba is considered to be the highest grade of carnauba wax available. White carnauba is sometimes called ivory carnauba. Some people have stated that ivory or white carnauba is yellow carnauba that's bleached white, but I've yet to see any evidence of the validity of this claim. I've stated earlier that Zymol backs all of their waxes with a guarantee of its contents. They are one of the very few wax manufacturers that will acutally tell you the content of their waxes, and will put their reputation behind all of their (authentic) products.



Contrary to a lot of opinion, I have found that there is a difference between the higher quality carnaubas with more content and the more common retail based waxes. I was a avid user of meguiars and mothers, and don't get me wrong, their products were very good at their price points. I did observe, though, that the level of color rendition and finish resolution of a higher, more refined content carnauba wax is substantially more vibrant and intense than I've found from any lower priced wax.



Before switching to a high content carnauba, I used to laugh at some of the outrageous claims and prices of some of the elite waxes. What I discovered, unfortunately for my wallet, that my paint was capable of achieving a surprising array of color depth and a more brilliant resolution with a higher content wax. To me, this expensive wax just blew away all of the waxes I've tried before it, and outperformed all of the clearcoat resolution results of finishes similar to my own, as I've seen in person.



Love it or hate it, but in my opinion, there is much more to a premium wax than its price tag or claim, and you just may be surprised in how much a good wax will do for your finish. It all depends on your quest of a paint finish. For me, good enough was no longer "good enough" for me or my car's finish.



That's my opinion. You will have to compare for yourself to see which wax will bring you ultimate results. Remember, all the claims stated in the world will not replace a true to life brilliant paint resolution.
 
lbls1, isn't that what Dennis was saying?

Dennis H. said:
#1 carnauba is very pale and some people call it white. In technical terms there is no such thing as a white carnauba no matter how young the tree is.
Click to expand...

While I don't wany to be negative of any companies products statements, the reality is that every company pushes its own barrow, so I tend to take what I read with a grain of sodium booster. :D

Doing a search of suppliers of the raw product to the re-blenders (car wax mfrs), and keeing away from what the re-blenders (car wax mfrs) say, I found this interesting...especially the type/grade question:



http://www.relship.com/carnauba.html



http://www.pvp.com.br:80/carnauba_wax.htm



http://www.strahlpitsch.com:80/spcarnau.htm



http://www.calwax.com:80/Products/Natural/Carnauba.asp



http://www.multiceras.com:80/applications/carnauba.htm



I'm no chemist but it tends to confirm what Dennis said.



But, at the end of the day you use what looks best to you, regardless of whether the mfrs claim that it's made from white, yellow, pink or spam! :xyxthumbs
 
I didn't necessarily disagree with Dennis's comment. I believe I was responding to the comment concerning the amount of carnauba wax in typical waxes vs. high content waxes, and its merits.



If you look carefully though at the references above, and with other sources, you will see that the wax industry does recognize "white" carnauba as being the highest grade of wax available, despite the fact that there isn't an "albino" tree.
 
lbls1 said:
If you look carefully though at the references above, and with other sources, you will see that the wax industry does recognize "white" carnauba as being the highest grade of wax available, despite the fact that there isn't an "albino" tree.
Click to expand...



I looked through all those sites, and never saw white mentioned at all. Which one did you see it on?
 
lbls1 said:
These, from the first page:



http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/036.html



http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Detailing/waxglaze.htm



http://www.zymol.com/carnauba.htm



Also mentioned here:



http://www.porschepark.org/garage/ta00007.html



Guru's report mentioned it briefly in their publication last year, but did not go into detail about its origin. Guru termed it as "Ivory", but did not explain about its characteristics.
Click to expand...



None of these articles, besides the Zymol promos, mention anything about "white" carnauba. Because a person or company miss-uses a descriptive term does not make it correct.

The highest grade of carnauba (#1) is pale yellow. Mother Nature made that decision. ;)

If a company describes #1 pale yellow carnauba as white so be it, but it is in the strictest terms incorrect. Remember in our society "white" has always been related to "pure", the "best", and the "right stuff". The use of this term here seemingly is trying to tap into this ideology. :wavey
 
From Griot's:



In the photo you'll see our Carnauba Wax resting on a nest of carnauba in its natural state (shown in chip form.) It's about as hard as a brick and needs petroleum distillates, mineral spirits, and other ingredients to make it soft enough to apply to your paint. You've seen other waxes advertised as "100% carnauba wax," but unless you are buying it in brick or chip form, it's just plain false advertising. Truth is, the maximum amount of carnauba that you can put in a paste wax is about 30%. We've put the maximum amount of the highest grade carnauba in Griot's Garage Carnauba Wax.



source: http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?L1=L1_1000&L2=L2_1005&SKU=11154
 
lbls - I think what most of us are trying to say, is there is no documentation from the folks who grow/produce carnauba to show there is a white carnauba that comes from Brazil. The only references to it are from some folks who make/blend wax.



Some companies (including some of those you listed) offer a white carnauba, yet no one offers such a product for sale as a component. I didn't see any reference to it at all from the woodworker's site you mentioned - the others had it listed as being in products they sell, but it in no way validates the existence of it.



Therefore, some of us believe it's merely a marketing ploy to justify a higher retail price and differentiate it from the rest of the offerings.



Yes, I am a manufacturer of wax, so please take my comments with a grain of salt. But, none of our suppliers has EVER offered us a white carnauba to use in a product. And, I would have hoped our suppliers would have brought us a component which is (allegedly) superior to what we buy from them and use now - #1 grade yellow. Therefore, I have to believe it doesn't exist except as a marketing tool by a few niche companies and their distributors, not the entire industry.



It does make for a good selling story, though.
 
Not only have our wax suppliers not offered any "white" carnauba...when I have asked to purchase some of this material I have been told that it does not exist...that the highest grade available is yellow #1. If you grind it up...it looks very white. Perhaps some folks out there are taking the time to identify the lightest shade of yellow they can find....but that would be pure marketing. The science says your eye cannot tell the differences in shades of a yellow # 1 carnauba once it has been processed into a finished good and used on your vehicle.
 
But what you haven't added was countering evidence which states that pale yellow, aka "white", does not exist, contradicting what Zymol guarantees in terms of their pale yellow carnauba product.



As for the posts above, yes they do mention pale yellow as being the highest grade carnauba available, and while that does fall short of a clinical study, it is evidence of its presence nonetheless.



You are still ignoring something here; One wax company guarantees that this "white" canrauba from pale yellow leaves exists! The same company gives you a signed certificate which states the contents of its wax. Conceivably, someone could have this wax analyzed, and if it were found that the contents were contrary to the advertised ingredients, then this company would be liable for misrepresenting their products. Would you think that a company that asks such high prices for their wax would risk its reputation, a reputation that Ferrari and Porsche trust, over something that doesn't exist?



Why haven't other wax companies, then, come clean by disclosing their ingredients in their waxes? What is there to hide that a company cannot tell you that their 100% pure carnauba wax only contains about 3 to 5% of actual carnauba content?



We could go on and on until next year about it, but the bottom line is that more than one wax authority has acknowledged that "white", or to be technical, pale yellow carnauba, exists and is regarded as the highest grade of wax available. More so, as a consumer, I have seen the difference (significant) between a "white" carnauba and a #1 yellow carnauba, and a typical carnauba mixed retail wax.



I do recognize that you represent a company that manufactures wax, and that is a good thing. However, if a company cannot risk their reputation for a paying consumer by disclosing their ingredients in their products, why should I, as a consumer, buy their product over another company's product, that is willing to risk their reputation for my business?? Which company would you believe then?
 
That lack of evidence does not fall on the fact that #1 yellow carnauba is the finest grade of carnauba. This is justified by literature.

What no one seems to be able to find is evidence for or for you to comprehend that "white" carnauba from virgin infant plants even exist.

Since you have some of this non-extisting white carnauba product with a certified statement expressing such, please call them on their claim. I truly believe they will come clean and admit that their "white" carnuaba is just their way of describing pale yellow #1.

There is a possibility that Zymol has privately bred a hybrid albino plant. This alone would justify their enormous prices for a product that does not proportionally augment appearance or durability to off-set the high price. I truly doubt that any company would go through the hybridization and necessary environmental, safety, and other certifications needed to release a genetically alter life-form into the general public domain.

No one is stating that Zymol's non Turtlewax series products are not good waxes but we are taking exception to their claim of possessing a unique carnauba (white).





What's the difference between Zymol NXT, Zymol Volvo, Zymol Corolla etc . I haven't quite figured this marketing tool either. :nixweiss



This is not a flame but the seeking of knowledge to clarify and justify product claims and uniqueness.
 
blkZ28Conv said:


What's the difference between Zymol NXT, Zymol Volvo, Zymol Corolla etc . I haven't quite figured this marketing tool either. :nixweiss



This is not a flame but the seeking of knowledge to clarify and justify product claims and uniqueness.
Click to expand...



Hmm now there is an interesting blend, Zymol and NXT :D I take it you mean Zymol NSX?



I spent several hours recently trying to figure out this "white" carnauba thing and what I found is that "white" carnauba seems to be the way some manufacturers refer to "pale yellow" carnauba. Carnauba gets darker as the quality goes down. The highest grade #1 yellow is a very pale yellow and I guess some like to call it white while the lowest grades are almost brown from what I gather. Everything I have read seems to indicate that #1 yellow and white carnauba are one and the same. The kicker for me is that Zymol describes their white canauba as coming from very young palms. I have also seen this same description in several places referring to #1 yellow (pale yellow).



These are all links to carnauba refiners.

http://www.kosterkeunen.com/Capability.asp?CapabilityID=388&Cat1ID=94&Cat2ID=114

http://www.poth-hille.co.uk/carnauba.html

http://www.spwax.com/spcarnau.htm



Here is a link to the same general statement from Zymol.

"Number One Grade Carnauba varies from a very pale yellow (white), through a greenish brown (yellow)."

http://www.zymol.com/carnauba.htm



I don't believe Zymol is doing anything deceptive here. In powder form #1 yellow does "almost" look white. From the statement above it does not look like they are trying to deceive anyone into believing that they have albino carnauba palms :)



Don't bash my Zurtle Wax :) I still have a couple of bottles. Other than staining trim and the fact that it can be a bear to remove if you leave it on too long I always got a good shine and decent durability out of it. It is dirt cheap and you can find it anywhere. I also have a jar of Zymol Creme that I pull out on special occaisions as there is just something enjoyable about using it. I am thinking about topping my current layers of Klasse SG with it before winter sets in here.



Zurtle Wax

2760frontquarterzymol.jpg
 
One more time. There is no such raw material as white carnauba. You don’t call a pale yellow rose a white rose...you call it a pale yellow rose. It's marketing, not science. A lot of wax companies use a certain amount of hype to sell their products...what one has to decide is whether this claim steps over the traditionally accepted "hype" line into the realm of just plain miss-leading folks. I am sure each one of you is capable of making that decision for yourself. It's your money...spend it where you feel comfortable.



There are other products out there that claim to be once a year car polishes...now what do we think about that? Me? When I hear this kind of stuff...I just turn the other way....with an understanding that these kinds of products are not something I would trust.
 
lbls1 said:


You are still ignoring something here; One wax company guarantees that this "white" canrauba from pale yellow leaves exists!
Click to expand...



True, but one company "guaranteeing" something that flies in the face of all the other companies, and raw material providers, doesn't necessarily prove anything.



There are companies that guarantee putting magnets on your fuel line will align the molecules, resulting in more power and better fuel economy.



There are also pills you can take to extend various parts of your anatomy, and they guarantee it.



I don't believe either of them, either, even though they guarantee it.
 
Mr. Chemist said:
One more time. There is no such raw material as white carnauba.

Click to expand...



I believe that is what I said in my post.





You don’t call a pale yellow rose a white rose...you call it a pale yellow rose. It's marketing, not science. A lot of wax companies use a certain amount of hype to sell their products...what one has to decide is whether this claim steps over the traditionally accepted "hype" line into the realm of just plain miss-leading folks. I am sure each one of you is capable of making that decision for yourself. It's your money...spend it where you feel comfortable.
Click to expand...



Not really sure how calling the carnauba "white" is misleading anyone. They are using #1 yellow, who cares if they are slightly color blind ;) This discussion is all about semantics. I could see a problem if they were using a lower grade of carnauba and trying to pass it off as a higher grade but, that just simply isn't the case here.





There are other products out there that claim to be once a year car polishes...now what do we think about that? Me? When I hear this kind of stuff...I just turn the other way....with an understanding that these kinds of products are not something I would trust.
Click to expand...



This is on the opposite side of the spectrum than what we have been talking about.
 
rjstaaf - we're in agreement. The difficulty arises when manufacturers choose to market it as a superior product, full of mythical powers. It's merely a method to justify an obscene retail.



"White carnauba" does not exist. It is yellow carnauba, called something else. Period.
 
forrest said:
rjstaaf - we're in agreement. The difficulty arises when manufacturers choose to market it as a superior product, full of mythical powers. It's merely a method to justify an obscene retail.



"White carnauba" does not exist. It is yellow carnauba, called something else. Period.
Click to expand...



I would think all manufacturer's including Mothers market their products as superior to others, do they not ;)
 
Well I'm certainly glad to know that as a chemist it would be ok for me to use "synthetic" carnauba wax, instead of real carnauba wax and it will be fine because of the symantics. I can still call it pure carnauba wax...right?



Gosh after all it is carnauba...right.....????



Wrong.



I'm done with this thread.
 
~One mans opinion / observations~



Its colour is determined by the ages of the leaves when harvested, and ranges from pale yellow (new, unopened leaves) to a greenish brown (older leaves exposed to sun and weather). a) Scientific Fact = Factual information not theory



There are various grades available (yellow, #1 yellow and #1 white) the pale yellow wax (sometimes termed as white) it is very transparent and is the highest grade of carnauba available, much sought after by concourse d’élégance entrants.

b) Marketing Hype = Scientific Fiction



In my experience of using Zymol the pale yellow wax (sometimes termed as white) it is very transparent.

c) Opinion = Not necessarily scientific fact or fiction



FWIW what I think constitutes an optically perfect shine comes from a level surface; it improves the desired optical properties- surface reflectance, applied product clarity, gloss, and depth of shine.

c)



~Hope this helps~



Knowledge unshared is experience wasted

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon
 
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