Whole house water filter & softener systems

J

jb1

New member
Does anyone have/use a whole house water filter and softener system in their house? I'm having a house built and I'd like to get these installed for the obvious reasons associated with hard water and to prolong the resin in my CRSpotless.



I've just begun reading about them so I have little to go on at this point. I see that Lowe's and Sears have both units. I don't think I'll get the approval from the wife for a big dollar set up so cost is a factor.



I believe you generally get what you pay for but at this point, something is better than regular tap water.



Do they make units that do both? Any input you have would be really appreciated.
 
A water softener won't prolong the life of your CRS resin. A water softener is an ion-exchange device, which exchanges the mineral ions for salt ions, while the CRS is a deionizing device, which will still go about removing the salt ions from your softened water.



I personally have given up on my CRS and just use my soft water for wash/rinse.



I highly recommend a water softener in general, and a whole house filter is a great idea to protect your water softener and other devices from particulate. I have never seen one unit that has both together. Bear in mind that both the Whirlpool softeners at Lowe's and the Kenmore softeners at Sears are made by EcoDyne.
 
While having my house built, I installed an in-house softner to the plumbing. Although the water is relatively soft in my area, I wanted to prevent calcium and mineral build-ups around bath tubs and toilet bowls.



How much the system costs depends on the size of your unit, which depends on the size of your house. Tell your wife that bathing in soft water is better for the skin. It helps too if you have a daughter to persuade her. I do feel my skin feeling softer after I shower and bathe in deionized soft water. Maintenance costs of a system like this is around $6000 for every two years.



If you are getting a filtration system installed while the house is getting built, then you must purchase one that complies with building codes. There are some that you could splice into your existing system. Those do not pass building codes but are very cheap and could be installed after the house is completed.
 
the_invisible said:
Whil Maintenance costs of a system like this is around $6000 for every two years.
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jdoria said:
There is some maintenance on the set up, maybe $600-700 for filters and such every year.
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Holy hell, I hope the_invisible slipped a digit there! I don't have a filter, but the element shouldn't be more than $50, so if you change it yourself twice a year, well you can do the math. The amount of salt depends on how much water you use, but again, if you go to Home Depot or Lowe's (I've also seen water softener salt in supermarkets), it should be something like $200-400/year, maybe less. It's usually pretty cost-effective to have the salt delivered and installed, although I've found they like to use the cheap salt that clogs up the softener over time.
 
Setec,

Yeah, my thinking was that it would easier on the CRS to remove the sodium as opposed to the 300 TDS that I have. Also, I don't know anything about EcoDyne - can you give me some more info regarding their units?



The filter I saw did not have cartridges if I read it correctly - I believe you periodically do some type of backwash to get rid of the contaminants.



I just read about one on Sears and the useful life is 750,000 gallons - then what - spend another $2,700 for a replacement?





the_invisible,

My wallet exploded when I read your reply.





jdoria,

Do you have a filter or softener? I'm guessing it's a softener. Any idea what your TDS is before/after the unit? So there's no sodium spots left? I'm liking what I hear.
 
We had a whole home system installed in a condo that we used to own and it treated not only the indoor water fixtures, but also the outside ones. At the time I wasn't yet bitten by the detailing bug, but I did notice a huge difference in our indoor water. The unit itself cost almost 3K, but the upkeep was very minimal.

The unit would clean itself once a week at which ever time you programmed it.

If I remember correctly, the rep stated that maintenance had to be performed once every 8-10 years. I think it was called a Water Boy (no pun intended).
 
I cant comment on the water softener but I will say I dont think ill ever install a whole house water filter again.



I have had 2 leak causing serious damage ($20k+) and the water in my area is just not that bad ...
 
jb1 said:
Setec,

Yeah, my thinking was that it would easier on the CRS to remove the sodium as opposed to the 300 TDS that I have. Also, I don't know anything about EcoDyne - can you give me some more info regarding their units?



The filter I saw did not have cartridges if I read it correctly - I believe you periodically do some type of backwash to get rid of the contaminants.



I just read about one on Sears and the useful life is 750,000 gallons - then what - spend another $2,700 for a replacement?
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The ChemE's here seem to think that TDS is TDS, the CRS doesn't care whether it is mineral ions or salt ions, it will be depleted just the same. Ecodyne seems to be the largest softener mfr., they make under at least 4 brand names, probably more. Water softeners, water filters and deionizers. Commercial and industrial water deionizers, filters and softeners. http://www.ecowater.com/index.php



If you're talking about a filter that requires a backwash then that's likely a sand or diatomaceous earth filter. Don't know if the 750K gallons you refer to is for the softener or the filter, but either way, you should be able to replace the media after that period.



Member dirtdiggler works in the water softening world, you could try PM'ing him.
 
RustyBumper,

I'm going do a search for it right now.



YeboGoGo,

That thought crossed my mind - it will be installed in my garage and I'll make sure I'm covered in case of an accident. Thanks for the heads up!



Setec,

The backwash one is by Whirlpool at Lowe's. Looks like it removes sediment, chlorine taste & odor. The 750k one is $2,715 at Sears - here's the description of Model# CQEWH01135



"Large Automatic Whole House Nitrate Water Filter is designed to remove Nitrates from water as well as perform other water filtration in a Whole House applications. Water travels through 6 stages of filtration First stage water flows through a 20' sediment filter cartridge Second Third and Forth stages water flows through a KDF-85 KDF-55 and GAC Fifth stage water flows through a nitrate reducing mineral tank. Sixth stage water flows through a 20' solid carbon cartridge Poly Glass mineral tank filled with REDOX and GAC with a brine mineral water conditioner. Poly Glass mineral tank filled with a nitrate reducing media. Riser style 1' internal flow distributor. Solid state microprocessor with LED display Electronics control valve 11.0 gallon-per-minute flow rate 3/4' or 1' Stainless Steel Bypass Valve."
 
I really couldn't figure out why you would use something like that Whirlpool one...IIRC the particle efficiency wasn't that good, adn I don't remember it doing anything for chlorine, taste, and odor (which would imply a carbon filter which would require frequent replacement). As far as that $2,715 one is concerned, I wouldn't dream of that one, and I'm nuts. I just want to get a $75 one with a 5 micron filter and a clear housing so I can see when it has fish in it.
 
jb1, we had ours installed in the garage right behind the water meter. We had the plumber run a line into our laundry drain, for the weekly cleaning discharge.

Having it in the garage gave me a great peace of mind. I wasn't worried or cared if it leaked water because of where it was.
 
I have two identical systems, one for the house and another for the shop: twin-cartridge sediment filters (5 micron, might try using a 10 micron for the first one), then what my contractor called a "berm filter" (like a softener without the brine tank..the water analyis guys said I needed it, for the manganese content or somesuch), then a softner.



I still use the CRS for some final rinses.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Holy hell, I hope the_invisible slipped a digit there! I don't have a filter, but the element shouldn't be more than $50, so if you change it yourself twice a year, well you can do the math. The amount of salt depends on how much water you use, but again, if you go to Home Depot or Lowe's (I've also seen water softener salt in supermarkets), it should be something like $200-400/year, maybe less. It's usually pretty cost-effective to have the salt delivered and installed, although I've found they like to use the cheap salt that clogs up the softener over time.
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I go for three new cartridges every January. Needed or not, its on the calendar to replace.



You can go to Home Cheapo, but like anyrhine else in Home China, you have to expect on buying it twice!
 
On the salt cost, if you use potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride ("salt") for the presumed health benefits (better for watering houseplants too; I use it in the system that feeds my RO drinking water), the cost goes up a *LOT*.



I just got back from buying salt- regular salt (yeah, I run the cheap Resinguard stuff, never had a problem with it) is $3.69/40 lbs. whereas the potassium chloride (Nature's Own brand) was $13.32/40 lbs. :eek:



Oh, and the filter elements (25, 10, 5 or 1 micron) were $1.32/each, which is dirt-cheap considering the [stuff] I see 'em catch.
 
RustyBumper, Accumulator and jdoria, would you guys please post (or PM me) the brand and model #s of the systems y'all are using? I'd like a ballpark idea of what your system goes for - I'm meeting with the builder on Saturday and they should have a price on what their system will cost and I'd like to be able to compare the systems. Thanks for your help - I appreciate it.



Since I have no point of reference, how many gallons of water will 40 lbs. of potassium & sodium chloride treat? I'll check my water bill to see how many gallons I use per month.
 
I've had these in several homes. The units I use, one for water softening and one for iron filtration are very inexpensive to operate.



The water softener (Pelican NaturSoft Salt-Free Water Softener) is salt-free and costs nothing to operate.



Pelican NaturSoft NS3 Salt Free Water Softener - $1,295.00





The iron filter (Hellenbrand Iron Curtain) also has no chemicals or filter media to replace.



Iron Removal Systems



My water dries nearly spotless on my cars.



You probably should consider having your water tested before doing anything.
 
jfelbab said:
I've had these in several homes. The units I use, one for water softening and one for iron filtration are very inexpensive to operate.



The water softener (Pelican NaturSoft Salt-Free Water Softener) is salt-free and costs nothing to operate.



Pelican NaturSoft NS3 Salt Free Water Softener - $1,295.00





The iron filter (Hellenbrand Iron Curtain) also has no chemicals or filter media to replace.



Iron Removal Systems



My water dries nearly spotless on my cars.



You probably should consider having your water tested before doing anything.
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Thanks for posting jfelbab. Yes I do plan on testing the water - I just need to figure out the best way to do it. Maybe I can get a sample of water from the model house and have it tested at a pool supply store?
 
jfelbab said:
The water softener (Pelican NaturSoft Salt-Free Water Softener) is salt-free and costs nothing to operate.
Click to expand...



I guess it costs nothing to operate because it doesn't do anything? From the FAQ's at your link:



Q: If the water hardness is tested after the system is installed will the hardness level be different?



A: If the water is tested after the NaturSoft System is installed the hardness level will remain the same or even test slightly harder due to the existing scale being removed from the plumbing.



Maybe it's magnetically straightening the calcium and magnesium ions like those magnetic things that you pass gasoline thru to give your car better mileage...oh wait, I found it: "The Pelican NaturSoft Salt-Free Water Softener/Conditioner causes a physical change of the minerals. The minerals are breaking apart from the water molecules and bond together. Operating on principles of polarity, the calcium and magnesium are attracted to each other rather than attaching to pipes and other surfaces."
 
jb1 said:
RustyBumper, Accumulator and jdoria, would you guys please post (or PM me) the brand and model #s of the systems y'all are using? I'd like a ballpark idea of what your system goes for - I'm meeting with the builder on Saturday and they should have a price on what their system will cost and I'd like to be able to compare the systems. Thanks for your help - I appreciate it.



Since I have no point of reference, how many gallons of water will 40 lbs. of potassium & sodium chloride treat? I'll check my water bill to see how many gallons I use per month.
Click to expand...



I won't be of much help here as my system was part of a big overall job so I can't even guess how much it cost. Plus, I'm just guessing how frequently to run the softeners, erring on the side of more often than necessary (currently every third day for the house and less often for the shop). And I don't refill them at set intervals, but rather just when it occurs to me; supposedly you should keep the salt at a certain level but I don't find that to be necessary so I just make sure they don't get too low.



I guess it sounds kinda goofy, but I simply don't know how much salt/potassium chloride I go through. I buy about $150 worth and that's good for a few months.



How often *you* will need to run them will depend on your water quality along with the amount of water anyhow. The contractor will take water samples for analysis to determine what equipment you need and how often to run it.



I suggest you price the type of softeners that use flow-meters to determine when to regenerate. I did *NOT* go that route this last time (knee-jerk reaction to issues with my previous system) and I think I made a mistake there. What I have now works super but I sure go through a lot of salt (and water, each regeneration wastes quite a bit).



The size of the softener will also depend on the quality/quantity of water used. My (municipal) water is pretty bad.



I have Nelsen Water Treatment Solutions brand softeners, Model 5600. The flow-rate version is called a Model 5600 Econominder.



A softener with the NON-flow-meter, like what I have now, should cost about $400 installed (the vendors often offer installation as part of the deal). At least that's what the cheapest source in my area charges for a unit a little smaller than mine. The flow-meter head units add a bit to that but would probably pay for themselves in conserved water/salt pretty fast and you'd still be pretty well assured of having soft water when you need it.



Since your builder is already doing this kind of work now, you should be able to get a good system without spending too much. GET THE FILTERS! Do all this stuff now. Talk directly to the water guy your builder subcontracts with, get a good relationship with the plumbers who work on your place ;)



FWIW, I have shutoffs and bypasses for my filters and the softeners. The softeners have built-in bypasses, but I want to have options because when (OK, OK..."IF";) ) something goes wrong I want to be able to do whatever's necessary to keep the water flowing. And they make changing the filters, without making a wet mess, a breeze.



Oh, and it can pay to shop around for salt. The place I patronize now is the same vendor who supplies most of the local stores and gas stations that sell salt, and cutting out the middleman saves a bundle. That $13.32 bag of potassium chloride costs over $18 at the local grocery store and I also save a lot on regular salt.
 
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