Whole house water filter & softener systems

[jb1]

Accumulator,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy and informative post. This is the kind of info I need.



If you didn't use the CRSpotless, would your filter/softener system still leave spots? Along with this, does using your whole house unit extend the life of your resin or does it have to remove just as much potassium/salt as it does TDS?



Regarding water hardness, is this reduced/replaced by the softener or the filter?



The more information I get from you guys makes me ask more questions but I'm learning and I promise not to ask the same question twice. lol

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy and informative post. This is the kind of info I need...

Glad it was of some help...I worried it was a little short on useful detail.

If you didn't use the CRSpotless, would your filter/softener system still leave spots?

Yeah, but the spotting isn't bad and is easily wiped off with some QD. VERY different from hard-water spotting with serious mineral deposits/etc.

Along with this, does using your whole house unit extend the life of your resin or does it have to remove just as much potassium/salt as it does TDS?

No idea, never tried the CRS with hard water. I somehow suspect, but hey just a guess, that the "lighter stuff" like sodium/potassium is less taxing on the resin but again, that's just a guess.

Regarding water hardness, is this reduced/replaced by the softener or the filter?

By the softener. Though that "berm filter" thing I have, just by itself, did result in clearer looking icecubes. That's hardly a scientific evaluation, but it did catch my eye (we had the berm filters installed before the softeners due to scheduling issues).



The sediment filters don't do anything except catch, well, sediment; dirty/gritty stuff that simply amazes me (hey, this is treted, municipal water in a "nice community"!). But that's a lot of [stuff] that's getting filtered out and thus not ending up on the vehicles, so I do believe the filters are very beneficial. Not to mention the thought of drinking/cooking/bathing/laundering with water that still had all that [stuff] in it

The more information I get from you guys makes me ask more questions but I'm learning and I promise not to ask the same question twice. lol

Well, don't hesitate to ask for clarification, or even just repeat a Q that doesn't get a helpful response. When these threads get lengthy I end up repeating myself anyhow.



I simply did a shotgun approach to my water issues; booster pump/holding tank to improve pressure, all the filters and softeners, and RO units (house and shop) for drinking water. With all that $ down the drain :chuckle: (sorry ) it only stands to reason that when I add the CRS for final rinses I shouldn't have much to worry about!



And I don't really *need* the CRS all that much, hence the limited use it gets. Wiping off the spotting (which isn't much after all my compressed-air blowing and endless drying efforts) isn't that big of a deal when the water is filtered and softened.

 

[jb1]

Accumulator,

Heck, all I've ever know is hard water so I know how much the CRS means to my detailing. I'm considering buying separate resin for each tube (cation & anion) resin so I could re-charge it when it's exhausted.



I'm still waiting to hear back from the builder on what type of filter/softener they use. I'll let you know when I find out. She said if I didn't like it that they had a lot of resources and they'd be glad to help me find a "system" that I liked.



I mentioned the shut-off and bypass valves and she said it won't be a problem.



My wife has already named my domain the GarageMahal. :spot

 

[RustyBumper]

Are you going to have drains installed in your garage so you don't get water build up?

 

[jb1]

Are you going to have drains installed in your garage so you don't get water build up?

They can't install drains because it's against the city code. She said (FWIW) that the city was afraid people might try to dump oil down the drain if they were built in people's garage. I don't know if that's the real reason they don't allow it, but there was nothing much I could say at that point.



I wanted a drain and maybe some cinder block walls or something so I could have my own wash stall.



Guess it's time for plan B.

 

[Bunky]

I had a Kenetico dual tank system installed. It has worked nicely. It is a mechanical system where regeneration is based upon water usage rather than a set time.



I use sodium chloride since the potassium chloride is so much more expensive (like 3x) but I may switch to see if I see a difference in test, theoretically healthier, and we do not use that much salt.

 

[Accumulator]

They can't install drains because it's against the city code. She said (FWIW) that the city was afraid people might try to dump oil down the drain if they were built in people's garage. I don't know if that's the real reason they don't allow it, but there was nothing much I could say at that point.



I wanted a drain and maybe some cinder block walls or something so I could have my own wash stall.



Guess it's time for plan B.

I dunno if you'd want to get into it, but I have a commerical-code-compliant oil separator connected to my garage drain which then connects to the sanitary sewer (as opposed to the storm sewer/"graywater" connection that's usually used for residential garage drains in my area). My builder initially thought I was nuts but once I insisted (and he realized I wasn't gonna give up ) he ended up finding it a pretty simple thing afterall. It's the same setup I had back when I had a car dealership and if it's good enough for the shop at a dealeship it'll be OK for a residence.



Even though I coulda got by without the separator, it just seemed like the right thing to do, and boy-oh-boy did it make a nice impression on the inspectors



Seriously, the oil separator isn't a big deal and it won't need emptied in your lifetime so it's a "build and forget" kind of thing that I think you'd appreciate down the road. Give some thought to what you'll do about the water without a floor drain...

 

[jb1]

I had a Kenetico dual tank system installed. It has worked nicely. It is a mechanical system where regeneration is based upon water usage rather than a set time.



I use sodium chloride since the potassium chloride is so much more expensive (like 3x) but I may switch to see if I see a difference in test, theoretically healthier, and we do not use that much salt.

Bunky,

When you wash your vehicles, do you notice any water spots?

 

[jb1]

I dunno if you'd want to get into it, but I have a commerical-code-compliant oil separator connected to my garage drain which then connects to the sanitary sewer (as opposed to the storm sewer/"graywater" connection that's usually used for residential garage drains in my area). My builder initially thought I was nuts but once I insisted (and he realized I wasn't gonna give up ) he ended up finding it a pretty simple thing afterall. It's the same setup I had back when I had a car dealership and if it's good enough for the shop at a dealeship it'll be OK for a residence.



Even though I coulda got by without the separator, it just seemed like the right thing to do, and boy-oh-boy did it make a nice impression on the inspectors



Seriously, the oil separator isn't a big deal and it won't need emptied in your lifetime so it's a "build and forget" kind of thing that I think you'd appreciate down the road. Give some thought to what you'll do about the water without a floor drain...

So do you have an oil tank that's built into the ground that can be drained once it gets full? I may not understand what you're saying.



I could always hire you to go argue my point for me to the builder - persistence works. LOL



I'd REALLY like a floor drain and concrete/cinder block type of wall to have my own wash stall so I'd never have to worry about the sun. And we get plenty of it here in Dallas. I'm lucky since the east side of my house will be a field/farm land with trees on it so that may help a little. I'll still probably have to wash in the late afternoon though.

 

[Accumulator]

So do you have an oil tank that's built into the ground that can be drained once it gets full? I may not understand what you're saying...

Yeah, that's right, you *do* understand It's under my garage floor with a manhole cover over top of it (at my previous shop it was out under the pavement in the parking lot).



Before I sold the previous shop, I had the tank drained (after years of use, including the dealership). There was hardly any oil in it at all. So it's not like there's any routine maintenance to worry about.

I could always hire you to go argue my point for me to the builder - persistence works.

Heh heh, yeah...but I'm not exactly known for getting things done under budget

I'd REALLY like a floor drain and concrete/cinder block type of wall to have my own wash stall so I'd never have to worry about the sun..

Well, then I say to *do it that way* I know, easy for me to say, and easy for me to spend your money But seriously, I'd try doing it right (whatever "right" means to you) if you can possibly swing the cost. I sure didn't design my shop perfectly, lots of stuff I'd do differently if I had the chance, but it's close enough that I'll *never* have to do it over.



I'd think of it as your chance to get things *your* way, just like Burger King :chuckle: Builders sometimes come around when they realize you're not gonna change your mind. IME they try to, well, bully people into doing things *their* way (even if they're really nice and polite about it).



At least give thought to window placement/treatment so you have sufficient control over things like sunlight.



But man-oh-man I'd move heaven and earth to get that floor drain...

 

[jb1]

Yeah, that's right, you *do* understand It's under my garage floor with a manhole cover over top of it (at my previous shop it was out under the pavement in the parking lot).



Before I sold the previous shop, I had the tank drained (after years of use, including the dealership). There was hardly any oil in it at all. So it's not like there's any routine maintenance to worry about.







Heh heh, yeah...but I'm not exactly known for getting things done under budget







Well, then I say to *do it that way* I know, easy for me to say, and easy for me to spend your money But seriously, I'd try doing it right (whatever "right" means to you) if you can possibly swing the cost. I sure didn't design my shop perfectly, lots of stuff I'd do differently if I had the chance, but it's close enough that I'll *never* have to do it over.



I'd think of it as your chance to get things *your* way, just like Burger King :chuckle: Builders sometimes come around when they realize you're not gonna change your mind. IME they try to, well, bully people into doing things *their* way (even if they're really nice and polite about it).



At least give thought to window placement/treatment so you have sufficient control over things like sunlight.



But man-oh-man I'd move heaven and earth to get that floor drain...

You've convinced me to ask them again about the floor drain. I guess I can call "the city" and find out if what she told me is true.



The oil drain tank probably isn't an option for me. Just not worth the cost I'm sure. How about posting up some pics of your garage. I think you have the GarageMahal, not me. LOL

 

[Bunky]

Bunky,

When you wash your vehicles, do you notice any water spots?

If water drips from the mirrors or from the jambs it can spot but it is significantly less than before and does not seem to etch.



I am still sure I have dissolved minerals in the water since I just soften it. Other than a regular filter, it does not remove many other chemicals.



It sure made the soap suds better and cleans better.

 

[jb1]

If water drips from the mirrors or from the jambs it can spot but it is significantly less than before and does not seem to etch.



I am still sure I have dissolved minerals in the water since I just soften it. Other than a regular filter, it does not remove many other chemicals.



It sure made the soap suds better and cleans better.

Bunky,

I'm looking at the Kenetico website. Which tanks do you have? The whole house filters and the city water softeners look interesting. If you don't mind my asking, I'm curious what these cost. (pm if necessary)



I'm trying to find websites that give unbiased reviews on whole house filters and softeners and I'm not finding much of anything. It's pretty much websites selling systems and man are there a ton of choices out there.



My head is spinning trying to figure out what to do but you guys have been a huge step in the right direction for me. I trust testimonials from people who post on here. It's a little tougher for me to "trust" a review from a website from joe unknown who may or may not be real.



More often than not, I find when people start dropping serious coin on something, of course they're going to say it's fantastic but that's just my own skeptical take.

 

[Bunky]

I have the well water system since we are on a community well system. If I recall, it cost about $2200 installed. We have some iron but no minimal chlorine issues so did not opt for any other treatments. I think it was like 7 to 9 grains hard which is considered hard water. The ph was like 9.



I called several (Rainsoft is a real hard sell job) and got quotes. I never could get a straight comparison either so I know the feeling.



I ended up with Kenetico since it was all mechanical (no electricity needed and electronics to fail..saw complaints of that), it regenerated based upon usage (using a fixed softening rate) at whenever a set time is up, two tanks so supposedly it uses less water to renegenerate and you can regenerate and use water at the same time (no loss of pressure).



Some have systems that remove other stuff too (they customize the resins in the tanks) but it appeared they needed to be replaced more often (repacking).



Now depending on who you talk to, some will say water feels slimey. It does feel different than hard water does but sounds more like FUD to me. Our shower head was always clogging up due to calcium deposits..it rarely needs touching.



The amount of salt added is less than supposedly any soft drink (not much) so even people on low salt diets should not worry. You can use potassium chloride if you want to really be careful but it costs 3x than sodium chloride at Lowes.

 

[jb1]

I'm doing some reading on the Kinetico systems on another forum and although they seem to be on the higher end, people that own them have them for decades maybe only requiring a rebuild or something. Pretty impressive systems from what I've read so far.



Do they require service or do you just have to add potassium chloride when it runs low? Initially they cost more but what other costs are involved other than sodium/potassium?

 

[Accumulator]

You've convinced me to ask them again about the floor drain. I guess I can call "the city" and find out if what she told me is true...

Good idea :xyxthumbs

The oil drain tank probably isn't an option for me. Just not worth the cost I'm sure.

You might be surprised, at least if it's incorporated into the job from the get-go.

How about posting up some pics of your garage. I think you have the GarageMahal...

My shop's not bad. No internet-posted pics for me though, I'm too cyber-paranoid

The amount of salt added is less than supposedly any soft drink (not much) so even people on low salt diets should not worry...

The little bit of sodium killed off some of our houseplants in short order, kinda got my attention.

Now depending on who you talk to, some will say water feels slimey. It does feel different than hard water does..

Yeah, Accumulatorette is *NOT* a fan of soft water...any degree of softening bugs her. Not enough to veto it though. I notice the diff but eh...I grew up with softened water.

 

[imported_dirtdiggler]

Hey JB,



hey this is cool - finally I can contribute.

I am fellow autopian and I work for Kinetico HQ R&D based in Newbury, Ohio. If you have any questions I can direct you with the needed info.



Setec - thanks.



Thanks

Fran

 

[jb1]

Hey JB,



hey this is cool - finally I can contribute.

I am fellow autopian and I work for Kinetico HQ R&D based in Newbury, Ohio. If you have any questions I can direct you with the needed info.



Setec - thanks.



Thanks

Fran

Yes indeed. I've been reading about the Kinetico systems and they look very impressive. I'm waiting to hear back from the builder on what model(s) they quoted me on installing a whole house water filter and softener.



Regarding the city-water softener, after the purchase what am I looking at regarding maintenance and cost?



Can the systems use potassium chloride?

 

[vberch]

I just replaced our 20 year old water softener (old Fleck) with a new one. There are a ton of water softeners on the market. You can buy one at Sears, Home Depot, Lowes, etc for $500-$800. These will last 5-7 years. Then you can buy a very well made Fleck or Clack valve based water softener either at your local water softener company or online.



Here is a very good place to buy one online (a lot of good info): Quality Water Treatment.



I did a lot of research and ended up with a Fleck 5600 SXT - 48M (48,000 grains capacity). I could have bought it from QWT for $543 shipped, but instead decided to get one locally for $900 installed (warranty, support, great local company to deal with).



It is a great unit and we are very happy with it.



Then we have a pre-filter and a reverse osmosis drinking system that requires 2, $12 filters once a year. We are very happy with the end result.

 

[imported_dirtdiggler]

JB,

My first recommendation would be to contact a Kinetico dealer in your area.. The dealer will provide a free water analysis and match it with a correct softener. Being in R&D, I have access to all our water gurus and Potassium Chloride will work with our systems, just a different module set-up, again this will be a conversation of topic with a Kinetico dealer. Note the benefits and cost.



My system at home consist of a prefilter and a softener. My cost is usually 8.00 us dollars for qty 2 bags of 50lbs of salt and I change my prefilter once a year. The usage of brine varies, because our softeners regenerate in gallon usage rather than electric timer, we feature non-electric. So if there is a power outage, our softener still works and no need to reset anything. And since it non electric, no added cost to your electricity bill and no battery to replace. basically set and forget.

Electrical softeners will have to be set at night when no water is in use to regenerate and some will not have the twin tank feature, so you may have hard water bleed in your line. Our softener features a twin tank that always one is on standby, so you will always have soft water.

I think the best thing is that we manufacture everything here in Ohio. Each plastic part is molded here and has our operator's initial each part. All Kinetico product have been burst tested, evaluated, and QA. If there is a problem with your softener, your local dealer is nearby or contact us here. We comply to full NSF and WQA certifications, not just buy the decals.



hope that helps.