Used Search & read endless threads.....

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djs134

New member
nOOb here and in the past several weeks, I've read through what seems to be hundreds of threads and used the search function to clarify any questions. Btw, the Secret Decoder Ring is great! I've been on a few boards for my other OCD issues (Coffee & Cigars) and had to fight through the acronyms before. And the Stickys are very helpful.



So, anyhow, after some Advil and a glass of bourbon for my headache, I've decided that my original plan of hand working my cars was not quite as feasible as I'd though given the fact that I have to work during the day.... ;)



Neither of my cars are in terrible shape and both are post 2000 so have CC. I'm debating between the PC 7424 and Griot's Garage 6". It's mostly down to what I can get for my money there since all of the threads seem to put them pretty close together (Griot's having a bit more power for the larger pads). Leaning toward the Griot's, but ...... :nixweiss



As far as the products.... I'm leaning toward a M83/ScratchX/M9/M81 combo. I've read the the M105/205 combo is very good, but being new to this, I'd rather have the product diminish on me so I don't over work the surface. I'm sure that down the road (when I get more comfortable with the DA) I'll go with the non diminishing products and use pressure to ease the abrasion. :nervous:



Any comments on the direction I'm heading? They would be greatly appreciated. :hide:



Thanks.
 
Daniel,



I have no first hand experience with the Griot's machine, but I have sold thousands of Porter Cable polishers over the past 10 years. The rate of failure on the PC is so low as to be laughable. Our sponsors carry both machines, and they'd love to have your business.



In so far as pad size and type of polish, I am a proponent of smaller diameter (5" to 6") and thinner (1" seems to work best) for all DA machines, regardless of brand. They simply do a better job of "working the polish".



On polishes, you're going to get a lot of recommendations. You will have to find out what works best for you and the cars you're polishing on. A word to the wise... be gentle on your paint and start with low abrasive polishes. Keep the big guns where they belong... locked up til you really need them.
 
First, Welcome to Autopia.



Second, your apparent searching and reading is quite refreshing. It seems as if you have a decent grasp of the process.



Machine-Pick a machine that fits your budget 7424/XP/Griots/G110 and purchase it from a reputable seller, so if an when you have an issue you can resolve it swiftly. Griots has a lifetime warranty if I'm not mistaken, which is quite attractive.



Pads- As you have likely read, a smaller pad and Backing Plate(BP) will be more effective. 5.5 and/or 4" work well. Orange, white and 1 blue/grey to start should be sufficient.



Polish/Compound-I wouldn't worry about the diminishing v. non-diminishing. Your pad choice generally dictates the level of cut with both abrasives and always start with the least abrasive combination. I would go with M205 at the very least and skip the older generation of Megs. Grab a small sample bottle of it from AutoDetailingSolutions or the like and pick up some Megs Ultimate Compound over-the-counter if you need something more aggressive. Get the feel for M205 and the process of polishing, then start to experiment with other polishes and compounds.



Grab a wax or sealant and post some pictures.



HTH
 
I'm not going to wade into the diminishing vs. non debate, but IMO the M83/ScratchX/M9/M81 is a bit redundant, if you're going to go with the MG line, I'd skip the ScratchX. If it were me I'd just go with the M83 followed by M80, I'm not sure how much the M81 is really going to do for you...although I'm sure I'll get some argument about that.
 
First, let me add my welcome! It's hard to go wrong with M83 and M80. In the future you will find yourseld trying other products, but the M series is a staple in most arsenals. Finish it off with some Meguiars NXT and you're good to go. We will debate endlessly over which product is "better", but that combination is a great starter set.



Another thought, reach out to others in your area. Most of the group is very helpful and willing to get together locally to help get you started, offer suggestions and trade some products.
 
Welcome to Autopia.



I am going to give you my personal opinion.



1. The Porter Cable 7424 is a very friendly machine, and is nearly bulletproof.



2. In terms of paint, you shouldn't need to do more than 2 polishing/finishing steps. For home use honestly, here's what I recommend.



A. Megs Ultimate Compound. (This will remove swirls, etc.) You should only need to do this infrequently, maybe once a year or two, but use it for your first polish to get a good surface to start with.



B. A fine polish. I use Poorboys World SSR2 or SSR1, but there are dozens of good options out there.



C. A good sealant. I use Optimum Poli-Seal on my own car and most customer cars. Occasionally I will use the Wolfgang Sealant as I feel it's the best available. But it's quite pricey. If I am going to do do a general wax, I will use Surf City Garage's liquid wax. It's easy, works amazingly well, and is inexpensive.





If you want to get into this as a business, then I can see going for pro line stuff. But honestly, for home use, most of it is overkill and will just confuse you or have you doing WAY more work than necessary.



My normal routine on my daily driver is tires/wheels, wash, dry, poli-seal, repeat 3-4 months later.
 
Thanks for the comments so far. Certainly going to review my product choice. From the Abrasion Chart, it seemed that the M83 was being rather gentle (as well as some of the comments I've read about it) but maybe still a bit to aggressive to start with. The ScratchX was for spot treatment of deeper defects and I should have indicated that I planned on doing that by hand.



I think I'll go back and look over my notes. From what I gathered about the diminishing polishes is that the particles broke down to finer and finer sizes and essentially "stepped down" for you so that you didn't over work the surface. Not true? Maybe the MUC/205 combo would be better for me then.



I know that the info is out there, it's just a matter of putting it in context and digesting it.... I apologize, this info has been hashed over on numerous occasions and yet, even by reading the threads, there are still questions when you start trying to make your own decisions.... why is that?



Again, thanks for the comments, keep 'em comming!
 
No need to apologize, that's why we are here. But I do want to stress again, that you are on a site generally aimed at professional detailers. And the choices that a pro might make may not necessarily translate all that well for someone at home trying to take care of their own vehicles.



Take M105. If you've got 2 cars to do, you may only need M105 once every 5 years. For someone seeing 5 cars a week, that purchase might make good sense. I bought 4 or 8 oz versions of a number of products and tried them out on my car or friend's cars. Some stuff I decided to buy in larger amounts because I used them a lot. Some stuff, I just never re-bought.



Try not to go overboard with the info you get here, and hopefully, people will recognize the context in which you are asking and *not* give you advice as though you were a pro starting out.
 
SCoach said:
But I do want to stress again, that you are on a site generally aimed at professional detailers.



Try not to go overboard with the info you get here, and hopefully, people will recognize the context in which you are asking and *not* give you advice as though you were a pro starting out.
Click to expand...



You know, I take umbrage to that statement. I think we have a really broad cross-section of members here, and it's NOT "aimed at professional detailers", although it is aimed at getting exemplary results.



I also don't think it's common for members to mistake the context of newb questions of "enthusiast" vs. "beginning pro", although it's common for newbs to be overcome by the depth and nuance of the info here, and some didn't want to get in that deep, but giving a newb more detail than he wants to hear is different than mistaking him for a pro.



I'm not disagreeing with you that this site is not best suited for someone who doesn't want to go "overboard". Your advice to buy sample sizes of polishes is a good one, almost all of us have too many products.
 
djs134 said:
... From what I gathered about the diminishing polishes is that the particles broke down to finer and finer sizes and essentially "stepped down" for you so that you didn't over work the surface...
Click to expand...



This is correct, but there is no way for the average Joe to know which is finer- the diminishing abrasive AFTER it has diminished, or the non-diminishing abrasive as it was designed.

As an example, if you compared the finishing capabilities of M83 and M105, oftentimes M105 will finish out better than M83. It is hard to believe but it is true.



Keep in mind that all types of technologies get better with time, even buffing liquids. Two other things to consider: PRICE of the product, and TIME to do the job.

The new stuff is rather expensive compared to the price of the old, but wow can you save a lot of time! As for worrying about "cutting" away too much paint....



The paint does not know the difference. If you are trying to remove blemishes that are "X" deep and M105 cuts the paint surrounding the blemish in 10 seconds while M83 takes two applications @ two minutes apiece, then you simply need to polish for less time with the M105. This assumes that you will see a similar end result (in terms of paint condition at the end of your polishing cycle). With M105 and M205 (and other high-end state of the art liquids), this is what is so exciting. The fact that you can ""compound" paint and end up with a "polished" finish in one step seemed laughable even a few years ago (each liquid has its start and finish point). But it can be done, it IS being done, and now, even as a "newbie polishing-guy" YOU can do it, too! :woot2:
 
Setec Astronomy said:
You know, I take umbrage to that statement. I think we have a really broad cross-section of members here, and it's NOT "aimed at professional detailers", although it is aimed at getting exemplary results.



I also don't think it's common for members to mistake the context of newb questions of "enthusiast" vs. "beginning pro", although it's common for newbs to be overcome by the depth and nuance of the info here, and some didn't want to get in that deep, but giving a newb more detail than he wants to hear is different than mistaking him for a pro.



I'm not disagreeing with you that this site is not best suited for someone who doesn't want to go "overboard". Your advice to buy sample sizes of polishes is a good one, almost all of us have too many products.
Click to expand...



Try to that my understand my comment about context had more to do with a newb coming in and reading dozens of discussions on products and techniques as discussed among pros or serious hobbyists and then trying to apply that; versus someone asking specific information about doing cars at home. I think that members here do a terrific job when asked specifically, but someone trying to just read a bunch of threads might walk away with some information that might not be in their best interest. Case in point. A newb comes here and sees 3 dozen discussions about how the M105/M205 combo is the best thing since sliced bread. They also see that going with 4" pads is "more effective". They combine those two things on something like a Subaru, and burn through the paint in 2 minutes. If they had asked someone for specific advice, that would get discussed.



Like most here I'd wager, I am a member of several sites aimed at detailers both pro and amateur. I tend to see Autopia as slanted more toward pros than any of the others I frequent. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just been my experience. When I want to research how pros tackle a particular car or problem, this is always my first stop. I'd consider myself an advanced hobbyist at this at this point, and I still consult this site before nearly every job I do.



I think the advice given in this particular thread has been pretty much spot on. And I think it's these kinds of threads that are most valuable to either newbies or home users.
 
Kevin makes an great point here:



Kevin Brown said:
The paint does not know the difference. If you are trying to remove blemishes that are "X" deep and M105 cuts the paint surrounding the blemish in 10 seconds while M83 takes two applications @ two minutes apiece, then you simply need to polish for less time with the M105.
Click to expand...



The rub to this is that the newbie won't KNOW that he only needs to work the M105 for 10 seconds. So he sees the videos on Youtube that show how to work polish, and does it for 2 minutes like he sees, and ooops!



The new stuff out there is amazing. And honestly, you've done as much to revolutionize the methodology as anyone I know. But I'd be hesitant to hand M105 to a newbie without some good advice and maybe some hand-holding...
 
SCoach said:
The rub to this is that the newbie won't KNOW that he only needs to work the M105 for 10 seconds. So he sees the videos on Youtube that show how to work polish, and does it for 2 minutes like he sees, and oops!
Click to expand...



Yes, agreed. He needs to make sure that he walks before he runs.



SCoach said:
The new stuff out there is amazing... But I'd be hesitant to hand M105 to a newbie without some good advice and maybe some hand-holding...
Click to expand...



A GOOD option would be to try these products out on panels that don't matter if they are damaged- such as those that can be had for a few bucks through the local salvage yard.



His BEST option would be to find a local autopian to help guide him through the process... that would be neat. Good points. :2thumbs:
 
Having been a nOOb in a few endeavors has taught me a few things about myself, advice and forums...



  1. I tend to dive in DEEP (Take this from a guy who went from 1 Mr. Coffee to 13 various coffee makers, a pro-sumer expresso machine, home made coffee roaster and 100# of green coffee beans within 4 months.)
  2. The is an almost infinite amount of information/advice out there and most is valid for those who offer it.
  3. Forums are excellent places to follow and participate in disucssions. The trick is to pick the info/advice that is "level appropriate"



I have to be careful (due to my "Hobby OCD" :chuckle:) that I don't bite off more than I can chew too early.



From the discussions I've read prior to this (and it seems to be supported here), that M105/205 is a excellent combo that produces outstanding results and saves time in the hands of an experienced user, it makes me just a bit nervous to use it right out of the gate. Assuming that there is a learning curve, no matter how shallow, my own inclination is to make 2 or 3 passes with a more "forgiving" product . Once I get a feel for how much cutting it would take to get a smooth finish using the less aggressive product, I can then add the time variable to the mix.



Again, this all stems from a couple of assumptions; a) start with the least aggressive measure and work back and b) a diminishing polish breaks down to cause less abrasion thereby "timing itself out", and therefore is more forgiving.



And again, I'm enjoying this discussion. Keep throwing info and I'll catch what I can and pocket what I can't. And I'll keep reading the forums and work my way into this. I'm just hoping my next post isn't titled "OMG!! *** did I do wrong here...." :buffing::buffing::grrr
 
Looks like you are on the right path! :)



I had some issues when I started doing this work for more than just myself. I am in Florida, and I needed something that had a long "work time" and wouldn't dry out quickly in the sun. And it needed to be "newbie proof". After piddling around with a few things, and doing a lot of research, I settled on the PoorBoy's World products. There are products that give faster results. There are products that give better results in some cases. But I would (and have) turned complete newbies loose with a Porter Cable and their products and they've produced fabulous results.



I also recommend and use the Megs Ultimate Compound. It's a fairly "light" compound, and breaks down nicely so it's really hard to overwork it.



I did a 1973 Porsche 911 for a client this past weekend. He bought it after it had been sitting outside, uncovered for several years. In fact, the last registration on the vehicle was 1996. The new owner watched 95% of my work, shot video while I worked, and was able to see how the single stage Guards Red paint came back with each step. These were the products I used:



1. Poorboys SSR3 - A VERY heavy compound. Nearly akin to sanding. I applied with a 4" heavy cutting pad. At the end of this step the oxidation was gone.



2. Megs Ultimate Compund - Applied this with a 6" Green Edge pad (similar to an Orange Lake Country pad). When I finished this step, the owner's jaw dropped. He thought it was ready for waxing.



3. Optimum Poli-Seal - A fine polish + Sealant. This really brought things up nicely. The goal wasn't perfection on this car, but he wanted it to look good.



All of these products are VERY forgiving for a new user. SSR3 is very aggressive but it has a long work time. Megs UC works down into something nearly transparent when it's done. And Poli-Seal disappears into the paint. It just goes away, and you wipe off the car. There was zero dusting to clean up, and all these products are very economical. For $35 you could buy enough of each to last a couple years on two cars.



There are fine products out there by Megs, Menzerna, 1z, etc. Try a little and see what you like. I gravitate back to Poorboys World because I simply can't find anything better for the price. Same with the Megs Ultimate Compound. The results rival a pro product and it's $10 a bottle. Surf City's liquid carnauba is $20 a bottle, and I can wax a car with it in 20 minutes. And it looks amazing for the price. Doing your own cars, this won't be a concern.



Reading all these comments almost has me interested in going out and cleaning up my car this weekend.... almost. :)
 
Take it from a total newbie, try M105 *by hand* first. Once you get the hang of it, you will then know when to stop when using it by machine. This approach works great on cars which are old enough.



- Vikas
 
sontakke said:
Take it from a total newbie, try M105 *by hand* first. Once you get the hang of it, you will then know when to stop when using it by machine. This approach works great on cars which are old enough.



- Vikas
Click to expand...



Not a bad idea. I'm getting ready to sell my 02 4Runner and I'm sure that it wouldn't be a bad candidate if I can get to it soon enough. 'Course, I'll have to also build in time to correct what I damage...then I'll have a nice spot and have to do the whole thing....and it's kind of large to do by hand.....gonna have to get a DA....wonder which to get? Griot's or PC....OMG! I'm back to the beginnin g again!!!!!....



j/k. Really a good idea. I spent the evening reading about the HD UNO and POXY, but thought I might need to get a feel for the products they're trying to replace as well. That goes for Machine vs hand as well. I"ve tried to use products by hand before, but without any kind of guidance or information to work from it was rather futile.....hmmmm.



.....there is certainly a lot of area on the old Toyota!!!!
 
sontakke said:
Take it from a total newbie, try M105 *by hand* first. Once you get the hang of it, you will then know when to stop when using it by machine. This approach works great on cars which are old enough.



- Vikas
Click to expand...



Not a bad idea. I'm getting ready to sell my 02 4Runner and I'm sure that it wouldn't be a bad candidate if I can get to it soon enough. 'Course, I'll have to also build in time to correct what I damage...then I'll have a nice spot and have to do the whole thing....and it's kind of large to do by hand.....gonna have to get a DA....wonder which to get? Griot's or PC....OMG! I'm back to the beginnin g again!!!!!....



j/k. Really a good idea. I spent the evening reading about the HD UNO and POXY, but thought I might need to get a feel for the products they're trying to replace as well. That goes for Machine vs hand as well. I"ve tried to use products by hand before, but without any kind of guidance or information to work from it was rather futile.....hmmmm.



.....there is certainly a lot of area on the old Toyota!!!!
 
M105 is not lot of work to do it by hand when you are doing a single panel. The visual feedback that you get while working this product is great. With every swipe you see the finish getting better and better. That makes it very rewarding to use. I have no personal experience with the black bottle of Ultimate Compound but from what I have read, it is somewhat similar to M105. It is under ten dollars at most discount places such as Target, Walmart and Advanced Auto. All these places will even take it back if you do not like it.



Over last twenty five odd years, I must have spent thousands of dollars on detailing products and let me tell you M105 is among the best if not the best.



If you feel really adventurous, print 20% off coupon for Harbor Freight and pick up $26-after-coupon rotary. There are bunch of messages on it in this and other forums.



- Vikas
 
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