Topping sealants before 24 hours

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imported_NHBFAN

New member
Of course in an ideal setting you'd top a sealant after 24 hr cure time, but when detailing for hire you don't always have that option.



Which sealants have you found that you can top in the same session with minimal compromise?



I've found NXT to be forgiving when topped early.
 
I've topped AIO and SG with P21s with no noticable problems.



Also topped EX-P with Natty's also no noticable problems.



The only real problem I've ever had with topping in the same session was with Blackfire and s100 , talk about streaks. :eek:
 
Today, I topped EX-P with #16 with no curing time. The #16 went on and came off nicely. I did have a little trouble because I applied it a little too thick. I also topped PwC with Nattys with no curing time. No issues there either.
 
If you apply your sealant with a high speed buffer fitted with a foam pad, the heat generated when buffing causes the sealant to cure immediately. You can then top it with whatever product you choose, without ruining the sealant.
 
kingoftheforest said:
If you apply your sealant with a high speed buffer fitted with a foam pad, the heat generated when buffing causes the sealant to cure immediately. You can then top it with whatever product you choose, without ruining the sealant.
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Don't think so. Maybe dry faster, but won't change the "cure" time much.
 
I hate to argue, but if you check with your product supplier/manufacturer, they'll tell you exactly the same thing. Any sealant containing ammino funtional resins/cross linking polymers will cure with the heat of the buffer. It's also a better way to apply a product that contain polymers as it helps to flatten the polymers out, giving a better shine than when applying by hand.
 
I hate to argue, but if you check with your product supplier/manufacturer, they'll tell you exactly the same thing. Any sealant containing ammino funtional resins/cross linking polymers will cure with the heat of the buffer. It's also a better way to apply a product that contain polymers as it helps to flatten the polymers out, giving a better shine than when applying by hand.
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If that is true then would EX-P cure instantly if you put it on in the sun? Paint is usually hotter in the sun then I would want to get it with a rotary.
 
kingoftheforest said:
If you apply your sealant with a high speed buffer fitted with a foam pad, the heat generated when buffing causes the sealant to cure immediately. You can then top it with whatever product you choose, without ruining the sealant.
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Please reference some literature. This concept is completely against the grain for popular sealants that I have tried. Especially the top two - Zaino and Klasse. This is especially perplexing since heat is not a necessary part of the crosslinking reaction and normally heat is associated with disruption of bonds more so than creation when dealing with liquids (i.e. sealants).

Please justify because this will revolutionize how we use and deal with sealants.

TIA. :wavey
 
Hey Guys, Don't argue with the King!!!



Chemistry 101. Heat is a catalyst. The Amino functional polymers used in "sealants" has about 50% protection when applied by hand. They have already attached to the surface because of their charged nature. But, it takes about 24-48 hours for the polymers to cure. The curing process takes place as the moisture and the solvents from the polish emulsion evaporate. This allows the molecules to cross link. (ie cross-linking polymers)



Heat (and the friction) created by the high speed polisher make moisture and solvents to evaporate quicker. It also causes the polymers to create a more even coating / film on the surface of the vehicle, which allows it to cure more evenly.



Therefore, the polymer is closer to being cured than the 50% when applied by hand. It might not be 100% cured, but it is further along the way.



On another note, Why do you need to put something over the sealant. The sealant should be the last step. If you aren't getting the shine you desire, you should use a different product or sequence of products. You can always use a product that contains both carnauba wax and amino-functional silicones to give you the desired look.
 
On another note, Why do you need to put something over the sealant. The sealant should be the last step. If you aren't getting the shine you desire, you should use a different product or sequence of products.

My thoughts exactly, a quality Poly is hard to beat in appearance.....BF and Plat have so much depth and pop....
 
Demon Detailer said:
Heat (and the friction) created by the high speed polisher make moisture and solvents to evaporate quicker. It also causes the polymers to create a more even coating / film on the surface of the vehicle, which allows it to cure more evenly.
Click to expand...



Chem 101:

A catalyst makes a reaction happen or speeds up the reaction. In a process known as catalysis, a relatively small amount of foreign material, called a catalyst, augments the rate of a chemical reaction without being consumed in the reaction.



Do not confuse a catalyst with something that speeds up molecular "activity". The last time I check evaporation is not a chemical reaction, just a physical status change ( i.e. liquid to vapor but original chemical structure of the evaporating substances is unchanged molecularly on both sides of the reaction. Example ice + heat = liquid ice (water) + less heat. Heat does not meet the standards of a catalyst (unchanged on both sides of reaction).





Secondly, I am leery about using polishes intended for use with a high speed polisher, let allow apply a polymer sealant with one. Burnt paint (clearcoat) is not worth experimenting with increased solvent/evaporation rate that has no proven effect on the crosslinking reaction.

This address nothing on the potential harmful effects that "heat" may have on the polymer structures in the uncured sealant. Are polymers inter-mononer bonds in sealants "heat labile" or "heat resistant"? Data one must have before adding heat as a reaction rate augmentor.
 
I didn't say heat was being consumed. I said that heat incresed the evaporation rate of the moisture.



And, heat is a catalyst, it is often used in chemical plants to increase the speed of reactions.



This is the definition from Dictionary.com "

: (chemistry) a substance that initiates or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected [syn: accelerator] [ant: anticatalyst] 2: something that causes an important event to happen; "the invasion acted as a catalyst to unite the country"



Also, if you knew anything about polymer silicones, you would know that heat does not affect them. They were developed for the space program because a substance was needed that could withstand the cold of space and the heat of re-entry.



That's why DOT 5 brake fluid is silicone fluid. That's why the space shuttle uses silicone polymers for their brake fluid and gyroscopes.



Finally, any good detailer, can use a buffer. If you can't use a high speed buffer without swirling or make the decision as to when a high speed buffer should and shouldn't be used, you aren't a professional detailer.
 
Demon Detailer , you very well may be right and have vaild points that we could all learn from but you're going to need to tone it down abit. Not everyone here is a professional and even those who are are not know it alls. We all can learn more about detailing , thats why we're here. Autopia is a place to share info and learn, not to tell other they don't know what they are talking about or be judgemental if someone can't or chooses not to use a high speed buffer.
 
I am not a professional detailer. Just an extreme hobbyist with skills and more importantly patience, judgement and an extensive science background.

High speed application of any of the sealants I use does not ever cross my mind. That's where patience enters the equation and the need to push out finished product is not necessary - hobbyist. If one of my cars is in the cycle of being detailed, well I drive another one. No need to rush the cake by turning up the oven.;)



Polymers are resistant to heat, cold and other external assaults. During the formation of this final macromolecular product the polymer (chains of monmers can be disrupted if not total chemically alter by external forces. One of them is heat. Take your sealant and place on a petri plate and supply heat. At some point the polymer will degrade. What is this temperature? The point is there is a point and unless you know what the degradation point is one can not equivocally state the sealant in question is unaltered by the heat generated by a high speed buffer. Please reference if you can WG, NXT, Zaino, BF, UPP. So equating the final product's strength with it structural components without having this data (i.e melting point) of these structural components is just assumptional.

As I stated earilier please supply data re-enforcing your heat-activation theory. I would love to have you revolutionize the way we use sealants and add 5,6,7 coats a day. ZFX and high heat would mean infinitum coats per day. ;)

Even so I still am not willing to subject my vehicles or anyone else's to high temps (+212 for H2O or lower temps for more volatile solvents) in order to produce a protective coating or augment shine. Especially when this short-cut is not recommended or even suggested by any of the sealants manufacturers I am familiar with.

Waiting patiently for your references.



Your tone needs adjustment. We do not communicate here at Autopia in that manner but we do seek answers and better ways to detail. :xyxthumbs

Buff on Brother, Buff on!!!
 
enter "heat as a catalyst" (include double quote) in Google and you'll see results listed by universities, chemical companies, etc. End of discussion there :).





Klasse is an acrylic resin

Poorboys EX-P and Zaino are amino functional resins



edit: Demon Detailer, can you provide any more info/references on why & how heat will cause sealants with amino functional resins to cure faster without any adverse effects? Be as technical as you want :D.
 
I only top sealants when requested by customers. Wolfgang, EX, EX-P and NXT all look pretty good without topping and the average soccer mom with a Suburban isn't going to notice or pay for the minor improvement.



Topping with Souveran is a good upsell though. High end clients love to know you are putting expensive wax on their cars over a sealant that will protect it.
 
Yeah, there *are* valid reasons for applying a "topper" over a sealant. If there weren't observable benefits I doubt many people would bother. Not that I top UPP myself ....



I'm following this thread with great interest. I hope you *do* get technical, and also that everybody stays civil. The "if you knew anything about..." type of attitude doesn't contribute anything of value. And don't get me going about the various definitions of "professional"; heh heh there are very successful "professionals" that I wouldn't let detail my snowblower.
 
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