Topping sealants before 24 hours

Demon Detailer said:
Hey Guys, Don't argue with the King!!!



Chemistry 101. Heat is a catalyst.
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Please do not confuse the "Collision theory and temperature effects on rate of reactions" and a true catalyst. ZFX is a catalyst.

Heat is not. Heat increase the number of effective interactions between elements (individual small chain polymers in this case) by increasing the number "effective" collisions by increasing proximity (via evaporation of carrier fluid) and increases the activity (movement) in space of the elements (polymers). More "effective" collisions more reactions.

Both heat and catalystic agents will increase the rate of a reaction but by different means.



So if one uses the collision theory there seems to be some basis to believe a sealant could possibly crosslink faster with the application of heat. The question is: will this heat stimulated acceleration be harmful to the sealant's structural components?



Still waiting for some technical reference on how applicable this heated application theory is with it relationship to the sealants we use. :cool:
 
is the function of the rotary or DA as a removal tool. Even the softest of soft buff pads will, by nature, remove some level of product from your car. Don't beleive me? Hold your hand under the DA with your softest buff pad for a minute..is it red? hmmmm :0



Couple that with the majority of sealants having some sort of solvant in it (Zaino being the exception I think - but again friction will be your problem there) and all your probably doing is removing the layer you just applied and replacing it again.



My rule of thumb is 1st layer of Sealant by DA and the rest by hand and viking applicator with at least 24 hours between for cure time. Even Zaino with ZFX does not recommend more than three layers at a time and 30 mins between application and removal.



Think of it like primeing and painting a wall - you have to let the primer dry before you can top it or all your doing is mixing the two..:)
 
will autopia ever get a straight answer from this question....find out on the next episode of the "Days of Autopians Lives" :sosad

Maaaan this topic has been discussed here since the early days, i wish we could get straightened out. Has a product manufacturer ever weighed in on this? Maybe King, Deamon, or blkZ28Conv is correct :nixweiss, i don't know much about chemistry (except i slept through it in HS, this makes me wish i could go back and... na not really).
 
Marlena but Roman says...:lol



it may be true - be that as it may - if the DA or Rotary flash cures your sealant - your still only going to get a second coat on - using the rotary or da again will only remove the cured first layer..





btw if an autopian dawns a hockey mask and starts offing us one by one only for us to show up on an island that looks just like autopia - I'm outta here :lol
 
groebuck said:
is the function of the rotary or DA as a removal tool. Even the softest of soft buff pads will, by nature, remove some level of product from your car.
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Excellent point!!!:bow

No science mumbo-jumbo really needed if one looks at this very valid point. :xyxthumbs
 
groebuck said:
My rule of thumb is 1st layer of Sealant by DA and the rest by hand



Think of it like primeing and painting a wall - you have to let the primer dry before you can top it or all your doing is mixing the two..:)
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I agree with you first statment and I follow the same rule of thumb about applying the first coat by PC and the rest by hand.



Not sure about the comparison statment you made about primer and paint , you're very right when it comes to paint you can't rush it or you'll have a mess. Is this really the same with wax or sealant , I wonder because if it was wouldn't that mean we couldn't QD the car right away , which is something I do to every car I detail. I think that most wax and sealants dry pretty fast , which is different than curing. Just with paint it can be dry to the touch but not completly cured. So what am I saying , I'm not sure just had this though pop in my head when I read Groebucks post. :D
 
Well - a QD is meant to add gloss and shine and extend the life of a sealant or wax - unless it is specific to the product used (like UGE for UPP or Z-7 ?? for Z2) - the QD by nature is not designed to remove anything only add in stuff.
 
Ok guys where do I start.

I've been a 'successful detailer' (sorry accumulator but I wouldn't waste my time with a snowblower even if you did accept my standards) for long enough -14 years- to know that a sealant applied with a high speed buffer not only looks better ( it flattens out the polymers) but lasts just as long as one applied by hand and allowed to cure.

blkZ28Conv says that patience is neccessary when applying sealants, try telling that to a customer who doesn't have the facilities to keep his car dry for 24 hrs just so that the long life product I promised him can cure. If we could only apply sealants on days when rain wasn't expected then we'd be limited to about 3 months work here in England. There are valid reasons for speeding up the process. I don't understand the point about a buffer removing the first coat when applying a second coat. Why are you applying a second coat? If you're using a good product and you've done a good prep job, you shouldn't need another layer.

It frustrates me that someone should rubbish a suggestion because they're scared that they may burn though the paint. Demon detailer was right to say that any professional should be able to use a buffer, this forum is after all entitled 'Professional Detailers'. Maybe instead of trying to tone down the Demon, you could suggest a more suitable forum for some other members.

Instead of buff on brother, buff on!!! try

Sod off buddy, Sod off!!!:angry
 
Nobody is suggesting that applying with a buffer is bad - or that it's worse than by hand - infact I prefer it by DA (never gonna burn the paint that way :lol). By hand or buffer it will dry fast - the 24 hour cure time is only in waiting to apply another coat - and this is from the weekend warrior perspective of mutiple coats on my car - when I do other peoples cars - I would never expect them to leave it for days - (when I work on others it usually the PB line ssr2,1 pwc then a coat of EX!).



but - mutliple coats of anything - carnuba or sealant usually add to the bling bling of my personal vehicle.
 
Still looking for some data to back-up your assumptions. Rather than getting mad because I did not accept your technique as gospel or even practical, give some hard data besides your professed skill at handling a high speed buffer.

You're a pretty tuff cookie behind that keyboard and 3000 miles away. Probably still mad that you lost the war. :rolleyes:
 
kingoftheforest said:
Ok guys where do I start.

I've been a 'successful detailer'



Sod off buddy, Sod off!!!:angry
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Ok I'm not clear on how some with such a poor attitude to other peoples opinion could be very successful at anything. Nobody knows everything about anything , yet you're going to tell all of us we're wrong. If you're so right and you don't need to learn anything new maybe you shouldn't visit the forum any more. I know I speak for all real Autopian's when I say we all can learn something new and thats why we come here. Not to tell others they are wrong and start a battle of any sort. How about you back up you claims with technical information or put a lid on it , if the people here are not to your liking then maybe you should take your own advise , Sod off buddy, Sod off!!!:
 
blkZ28Conv said:
....... I did not accept your technique as gospel or even practical, give some hard data besides your professed skill at handling a high speed buffer.

You're a pretty tuff cookie behind that keyboard and 3000 miles away. Probably still mad that you lost the war. :rolleyes:
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:xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs :bow :bow



Sorry, I couldn't resist!
 
How does a buffer flatten the polymers? Aren't polymers tiny little things? I'm only a dumb old software sales guy, so maybe that's the issue.



But what does it mean to "flatten the polymers"? That sounds almost sub-atomic.
 
BlackRegal said:
Lets not turn this into a flame thread guys, its actually an interesting discussion and I'd rather not see it get locked.
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Yes, seeing this thread locked would be rather unfortunate....



Keep you egos in check people. If someone has an opposing view to yours or disagrees with you, do not get take it as a personal affront to your mastery and greatness. Discuss and debate, don't argue.



And telling someone to "sod off" here is definitley a big :nono
 
4DSC said:
Yes, seeing this thread locked would be rather unfortunate....



Keep you egos in check people. If someone has an opposing view to yours or disagrees with you, do not get take it as a personal affront to your mastery and greatness. Discuss and debate, don't argue.



And telling someone to "sod off" here is definitley a big :nono
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us = PEOPLE.....not too NICE either Mr. 4DSC!!!!!!!!!!
 
Zaino (without ZFX) takes 24 hour to cure to the point where you can apply another coat. If the outside temperature is hot, Sal says 8 hours. The crosslinking is affected by temperature, as most reactions.



The temperature of dark paint in the hot sun can easily reach upwards of 150 degrees. I don't agree that using a buffer speeds up the process. Besides, your clear coat gets soft at high temperatures and you shouldn't be buffing hot paint in the first place!!!!



As for KLASSE. I have had back to back coats "gum up on me" even when using in the sun...... Can't change chemistry, there is no magic out there...........
 
Toyo98 said:
us = PEOPLE.....not too NICE either Mr. 4DSC!!!!!!!!!!
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Calm down. It is a general notice. Do you get offended when you see a sign in the park that says "No Littering"?
 
Wow! I thought car detailing is more of a labor/art thing than a science. Me, 99.99% of the time, let the sealant of my choice (most of the time is Meguiars #20) sits over night after applying it with a DA and a finishing pad; then either put another coat of the same for uniformity or a coat of carnauba, JUST BECAUSE me like it. Never heard of anyone applying a LSP with a high-speed buffer, but hey, if you’re comfortable and it works for you, WHO stops you.:wavey
 
detailforfun said:
Wow! I thought car detailing is more of a labor/art thing than a science.
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Me too, until I discovered Autopia. That is what's so exciting about Autopia. The intellect and diverse neighborhood of detailing fanatics that look beyond the shine, accepted protocols and products. In 99% of our discussion we can discuss, question and try to discover the answer in a civil manner.:bow



I found this "heat applied technique" extremely interesting but the justifications given unfounded. I tried to present my thoughts not to disprove but to stimulate conversation and find the real whys, if any, this technique actually made a difference or even worked. Hey, we are all seeking the "next level". Unfortunately, some took this questioning as an assault rather than the seeking of answers.

If my discussion appeared like an attack. I apology. Nevertheless, I feel this type of query is the norm here and I do not feel I crossed the line. :cool:



Back to the subject at hand :o

Has anyone tried this technique or found any data supporting it?
 
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