Topping sealants before 24 hours

Isn't the smartest way to contact the actual manufacturer and ask what their chemist thinks? I always read so many threads about different reactions, processes, etc it makes me go crazy. I think the person that actually created all these waxes and polishes has the best idea honestly. Or maybe I'm just crazy cause I have no clue what chemistry is truly about :nixweiss
 
Quote "It flattens out the polymers..."



~ One man’s opinion / observations ~



My assumption was-

Cross-linking – the polymer chains (monomers or building blocks) form a molecular bond, creating a dense, flat and smooth ‘mesh’ type structure that lies on top of the much smaller paint molecules. This polymer structure’s reflectivity results in a very bright, flat silver glow to the paint film surface.



And that one of the solvents functions was to help spread the polymers, and that temperature / humidity only affected the solvent cure, cross-linking was time dependant



Kingoftheforest- Nobody here is suggesting your ideas/opinions are rubbish we are all here to share / seek knowledge. Some advice from an old man (all right, very old)‘your never too old to learn’



~Hope this helps~



Knowledge unshared is experience wasted

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon
 
SilvaBimma said:
Isn't the smartest way to contact the actual manufacturer and ask what their chemist thinks? I always read so many threads about different reactions, processes, etc it makes me go crazy. I think the person that actually created all these waxes and polishes has the best idea honestly. Or maybe I'm just crazy cause I have no clue what chemistry is truly about :nixweiss



yes, it is the smartest way :). Anyone have any contacts with Poorboys, Zaino, and/or Klasse?
 
I can find out about Poorboy's / UPP Sealants and do a write up. Anyone up for a proper write up on Zaino / Klasse / Blackfire / Wolfgang / FMJ? :eek:



Its alot but lets see if we can get another Hall of Fame writeup! :D :xyxthumbs
 
First, there is obviously a lot of confusion of what I originally said. Let me clarify.



The heat and friction from a high speed buffer does two things. I will deal with the flattening out of the polymers that was referred to by the King.



Amino Functional polymers are not easy to formulate with. Any good ones that are higher molecular weight and detergent resistant do not like to layout onto an even surface. Think of applying the sealant as if you are applying paint. You want to put an even, consistent layer onto the surface of the vehicle. Amino functionals do not spread out easily like regular silicone fluid.



The theory is that the polish will be applied to the surface and spread onto the surface. The solvent and water will evaporate leaving a smooth, continuous, even surface on the vehicle.



This isn't always the case. Environmental pollution, scratches, etching, sap, weather conditions, will make the film not be even and continuous.



That is why some detailers "spit shine" the vehicle. Or you will get application marks. (What I mean by application marks is when you wipe off the powder, you can still see the circular or straight lines of how you put the polish on. It isn't really a streak that will come off with light rubbing. It takes more than light rubbing. ) You can also see marbeling. Light and dark effects on the paint as you look at it through the light. This normally happen on the horizontal surfaces since they get the brunt of the environmental contamination.



These are all because the polymers are not making an even, consistent film.



We all know that the way to make something shiney is to make it smooth and then put a coating on it. Think of sanding a piece of wood, then putting varnish on it. If the varnish isn't put on evenly, it won't be as shiney or look good - right?



So, using a porter cable or other orbital increases the friction on the polymers which forces them to create an even and consistent film on the vehicle. It is more true with a high speed polisher. More heat and friction create an even better film. That is if the user knows how to properly use the buffer and doesn't create swirls etc.



Secondly, the heat and friction of the buffer cause the moisture to leave the polymer faster. It breaks down the emulsion, makes a continuous even coating on the vehicle, and in doing so facilitates the curing of the polymer.



I am not saying that the polymer has to be heated to 300 degrees for several hours. I am saying that the heat and friction facilitate the even coating, which facilitates the even evaporation of the moisture trapped in the polymer which facilitates the cross linking.



If you live in England, like the King, the humidity is so high and the temperature so cold, it could take longer than 48 hours for the polymer to cure. If you live in Palm Springs it would take less. That's just common sense - right? So, the buffer creates an artificial environment more like Palm Springs.



As for literature, I don't have any. The only thing I can write is that I was told this by an applications engineer from Dow Corning. He is a polymer chemist and told me what I am trying to explain to you now.



If you guys want to read different literature about amino functional polymers on your own, you can go to Dow Corning and look up DC531 and DC536 on their website. It will explain how one is better for detergent resistence, the other is better for rub-out and shine. It also has a graph on curing time.



FINALLY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, WHY DO YOU NEED TO GO OVER THE SEALANT WITH ANYTHING ELSE. IT SHOULD BE YOUR FINAL STEP!!!



As I said before - Don't argue with the king - he seems to know what he is talking about. I don't know who he is, but if I l lived in England, I might let him detail my cars!!!
 
Nice write-up and explaination. I just have two questions on the validity of increased curing by momentary increase in temperature after reviewing some of Dow's own info.



Dow, from the reading I have done, usually states the heat-induced curing acceleration requires a minimum of 10 minutes at high temps and only after an initial period of allowing carrier solvents to evaporate. The high speed application and heat method you are advocating does not separate these steps nor allow sufficient time at high temp to cure "completely". The important word here is completely because the initial question was about applying a topper, for whatever reason, immediately or 24 hours after sealant application.

How do we know that complete curing has occurred using this method that is abberrant to industrial protocol?



I maybe beating a dead dog but I am still not convinced. :nixweiss



This is not a invitation for an argument just seeking info.:wavey
 
Hi guys,



The P & S Ultra Coat is a good product. That would be a good product to test with.



I bet that if you use your high speed with a soft foam pad at a decent speed (approxmately 1500 rpm). Keep the pad as flat as possible and use it like you are mowing a golfing green. Use overlapping rows as you buff the section.



Don't get the paint too hot. If you can't put your hand on the panel, you've gotten it too hot.



I bet you will find a better finish and it will last longer.
 
OK, the Demon's told you how to do it, now go and try it for yourselves. It's not even a difficult procedure. If you've got a good product, it'll buff off real easy, and you'll get a great shine and a much slicker finish. Only time will tell you how long it lasts, but I've had enough repeat customers over the years to know that the sealant I use ( Mark-V's ) lasts for years. I always tell them not to use any harsh detergents on their vehicles, and definitely no trips though the car wash. Most of them either buy their shampoo from me, or just call in a couple times a month to have us wash the car for them.

Thanks Demon for your help in clarifying this, if you ever come over to England, call by and see us. Maybe you can explain to me which war we're supposed to have lost.
 
kingoftheforest said:
Thanks Demon for your help in clarifying this, if you ever come over to England, call by and see us. Maybe you can explain to me which war we're supposed to have lost.



Still haven't clarify why it seems to work and present a "visible" difference. He did explain how you do it. We already knew the manual portion. Set Rotary at ~1500 apply sealant but if surface feels hot you are producing too much heat. The reason we are using the rotary is to produce heat acceleration of curing. But don't let it get too hot. Confusing concept. Heat but no heat. Or is it warm but not too hot. Is it 80* or clearcoat damaging 120*. Polymers need much higher temps for heat as an accelerator and more heat exposure. If it 80* why the heck am I using the rotary. Call me confused. Maybe when you two get together you can figure that part out. ;)

Hell I'll give it a try to prove to myself there's no difference on a well prepped surface. :xyxthumbs





History 101: The Revolutionary War. :doh
 
Can anyone supply more technical data for this product. Their website is not very informative.



http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=Ma...0/*-http://www.mark-v.com/index_prod_pol.html



They do state that the use of their sealant/polish is best applied with a high speed buffer which make perfect sense when everyone knows a sealant adheres best on a clean and polished surface. No such statement about their pure sealant besides that it can be applied by either hand, PC or rotary.

So maybe the confusion here founded by which product we are discussing.



Sealant and polish combo: Yes high-speed usage would be superior.



Sealant alone with rotary: superior results, dubious at best.
 
detailforfun said:
Wow! I thought car detailing is more of a labor/art thing than a science. Me, 99.99% of the time, let the sealant of my choice (most of the time is Meguiars #20) sits over night after applying it with a DA and a finishing pad; then either put another coat of the same for uniformity or a coat of carnauba, JUST BECAUSE me like it. Never heard of anyone applying a LSP with a high-speed buffer, but hey, if you’re comfortable and it works for you, WHO stops you.:wavey



Well said...the beauty is in the eye of the beholder...I prefer to think of this as art rather than science.
 
kingoftheforest said:
Only time will tell you how long it lasts, but I've had enough repeat customers over the years to know that the sealant I use ( Mark-V's ) lasts for years.



I'm not trying to pick a fight, but based on my experience as a driver and hobbyist I cannot believe there is any LSP that lasts for years (unless it is a garage queen that never sees rain or sun - maybe if it was only driven at night and never in the rain)...if there was I think we'd all be using it. :nixweiss
 
I tried this method with PB EX-P. An amino-resin sealant that I felt more comfortable with because of its thickness. I used my silver metallic daily driver's hood and divided it in half. One half by Rotary and one half by hand. Application was easier than by hand but not nearly easy as using a PC. I am just not completely comfortable using the rotary for this purpose because I have always tried to minimize too much heat build-up in one spot.

The results: No visible difference than the side I did by hand. :nixweiss



So I did a VM by PC and followed with EX-P by rotary. Again no difference visually but a definite tactile difference. The VM/EX-P side was smoother. I will monitor to see if there is an appreciable difference in appearance over the next 2 months.



I am not a professional so a professional's results may vary. Besides my queries about this technique I was hoping for a significant end result. Always seeking the "next level". I will give this "high-speed technique" another go with some other stuff I am testing on my black vehicle and see if there is improvement. :up





Conclusion: Like DK stated, it's hard to change chemistry or rules of such.:wavey
 
Overreacted! :nixweiss

Depending on what sealant products one uses, applying it by (hand, DA or) a high-speed buffer has been around for some time (read the labels on Meguiars’ #20, and even carnauba #26). It’s NOT new, just not POPULAR.

Look at it this way - most of us are preached to use “the least aggressive products/tools to the more aggressive ones� approach to make our car shine. Unfortunately, the high-speed buffer is the “most aggressive� tool.

Applying a LSP is the last and least time consuming, and the easiest step (for me) to do by hand or with a DA, so why taking the risk!



JMO
 
groebuck said:
Marlena but Roman says...:lol



btw if an autopian dawns a hockey mask and starts offing us one by one only for us to show up on an island that looks just like autopia - I'm outta here :lol
Sadly, I can understand your post. I need to get out more. :sadwavey:
 
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