The "Truth"

Charles, do you actually read what I write? :D



I was training someone and he was using Menzerna products with the rotary - polishing and finishing pads. He switched to D300 and MF system to make sure that there were no holograms left behind.
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It had nothing to do with skills. Certainly not mine. I wasn't the one operating the rotary or the da polisher. The trainee created a perfect looking finish that wasn't perfect looking a week later when I washed my car. Thankfully, he only did the trunk. I even took pictures to show him - but I can't find them anymore. I used some UNO to get rid of the holograms with a polishing pad and there were no holograms, not even months and many washes later.



You guys are free to discredit me as a detailer, that is fine with me. However, if holograms come back, that would be due to the product covering. Call Barry he can tell you about his experience as well.



Now lets get back to Garry Deans video.











C. Charles Hahn said:
I get that you want to defend your skills/etc., but isn't it possible that even you may need to tweak your technique a bit for a particular process or product?



No different than how I don't care for the results UNO gives me, yet some like yourself get great results from it.



Of course it could also be an environmental factor, or the particular finish being worked on, etc.



Just saying....
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Thomas Dekany said:
Charles, do you actually read what I write? :D







It had nothing to do with skills. Certainly not mine. I wasn't the one operating the rotary or the da polisher. The trainee created a perfect looking finish that wasn't perfect looking a week later when I washed my car. Thankfully, he only did the trunk. I even took pictures to show him - but I can't find them anymore. I used some UNO to get rid of the holograms with a polishing pad and there were no holograms, not even months and many washes later.



You guys are free to discredit me as a detailer, that is fine with me. However, if holograms come back, that would be due to the product covering. Call Barry he can tell you about his experience as well.



Now lets get back to Garry Deans video.
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:rofl Wow.... just wow.
 
In case point since Thomas mentioned my name here. Like I said earlier, I personally feel every buffing liquid to an extent will fill a little because of the carrier oils in them. If the oils aren't removed then they will be masking defects to an extent. I can say this about any competitors products, I don't care if its 3D, 3M, Megs, Menzerna or what the company is. Its just nature of the beast. I personally was a tester of the DA Microfiber System and to this date for its intended purpose its a great system for any detailer or enthusiest. We all have prefrences and what works for you may not work for me. Back to the D300 Issue. I had guys using this system long before it was sold to the general public in my shop. Here is an image of a small batch Megs sent over to me as a part of the testing.



DSC_0234.jpg




We ran this system hard for a few months and tested it auction cars and retail. We tried and trued every method possible. From machine variences to many manufactuers car paint. Mainly Benz,Bmw,Jag,Ferrari,Porsche,Lexus,Toyota Bently and so on. We were doing about 40-60 different cars a week. What we noticed was D300 looked great almost to the point of not needing nothing more then 301 to finish. At times and not all of them, there was issues with the cleaners in D301 removing the polishing oils and showing defects, but as polishing with 301 continued it then filled again. Hence keep in mind D301 is the finishing step. Keep in mind we wern't removing D300 oils as these cars were auctions cars and I wasn't getting paid for perfection. There are far to many varibles for us to sit and argue about the topic. Truthfully what it boils down to for me is what works at that moment. Thats why I stock compounds and polishes from several manufactuers. Just like a chef with his knives, I need a variety of tools to get the job at hand. Enjoy the forums. :bigups
 
Epic "filling" thread... Or is it "swelling"? :dizzy:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/guide-...spective-paint-defect-return-interesting.html



In regards to Barry's mention of D301 clearing away oils left behind by D300... there are times where D301 can micro-haze (so can microfiber discs when used for finishing). Usually the culprit is abraded paint residue (mucking up the buffing liquid... causing fibes and abrasive particles to stick together.



Happy reading- it's a great thread!! :sick:
 
TH0001 said:
BUT and it is a HUGE BUT, the outer edge of the pad is just one small area of the pad. As we move closer to the pads center the orbital motion becomes proportionately more significant.



Movement at 1 Inch:

Makita: 5,518

FLEX: 6,218



Movement at 3 Inches:

Makita: 9,725

FLEX: 9,231.6



Movement at 6.5 inches:

Makia: 17,089.75

FLEX: 14,506





Todd
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Looking at the area of the pad from the outside in:



Between 6.5 inches and 5.5 inches, where the movement is greatest, there are 9.20 square inches.



From 5.5 inches to 4.5 inches there are 7.87 square inches.



From 4.5 inches to 3.5 inches there are 6.28 square inches.



From 3.5 inches to 2.5 inches there are 4.71 square inches.



From 2.5 inches to 1.5 inches there are 3.14 square inches.



The 1.5 inch center accounts for 1.76 square inches.



Obviously, the movement of the 9.2 square inches at the outer edge is much more significant than the movement of the 1.76 square inches in the center of the pad.



Weighted for movement of the pad at every point I have to wonder why people are so concerned about getting smaller pads. I know they fit into the tight areas better, but the movement you give up, on the Makita at least, has to cost a lot of time when it comes to getting movement between the pad and the paint, in short, getting work done.



When people watch my high speed work they think I'm running the rpms too high, but I use a smaller backing plate so the speed at the point if contact is about the same as everyone else.



Your numbers helped me figure out why exactly I got the results I observed in practice, so thank you.



All the best,



Robert
 
It's at Home Depot? I get little bonus points at work where we can redeem them for stuff or gift cards, I have $250.00 in gift cards.......at LOWES!!

Friggin story of my life, like Rodney Dangrfield said," I'd buy a cementary and people would quit dying,"
 
JuneBug said:
It's at Home Depot? I get little bonus points at work where we can redeem them for stuff or gift cards, I have $250.00 in gift cards.......at LOWES!!

Friggin story of my life, like Rodney Dangrfield said," I'd buy a cementary and people would quit dying,"
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Yeah, $299 @ Home Depot. I may just go into the store and pick one up. Its a really nice machine.
 
Ok, I have mentioned how much I like the bo6040 for cutting, but now I am attempting to polish with it and I am seeing better results from my PC...



I just cant seem to get the Makita with a white pad to produce the same gloss as the PC with a white B&S pad on speed 4. It seems like the PC is finishing better... I will keep you all posted.
 
Garry Dean said:
Ok, I have mentioned how much I like the bo6040 for cutting, but now I am attempting to polish with it and I am seeing better results from my PC...



I just cant seem to get the Makita with a white pad to produce the same gloss as the PC with a white B&S pad on speed 4. It seems like the PC is finishing better... I will keep you all posted.
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Interesting....any theories why? Wanted to pick one up but I think I'll wait for your feedback
 
Garry Dean said:
Ok, I have mentioned how much I like the bo6040 for cutting, but now I am attempting to polish with it and I am seeing better results from my PC...



I just cant seem to get the Makita with a white pad to produce the same gloss as the PC with a white B&S pad on speed 4. It seems like the PC is finishing better... I will keep you all posted.
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Try the orange foam pad, with the H2 or W2 I sent and run the speed up all the way and more pressure rather than less. Be sure there's no cross contamination though, those products don't play well with others, clean the surface clean clean first.



See how I'm running it on the 31 Chrysler in my video, running till there's almost no material left and the shine has really developed. That leaves a cobweb free finish, not just swirl free.



Robert
 
Honestly, I tried... I just could not match the gloss I was getting with the pc...



It's a monster for cutting, but I do not prefer it for finishing.
 
From my understanding, this machine only allows use with 6 inch pads right? If that's the case, that wouldn't be viable option for me as I enjoy working with 5 inch pads too much. Larger pads are ok for large panels, but I still don't reach for them as they tend to not cut as much as 5 inchers. Regardless, this machine really looks like a solid unit.
 
Garry Dean said:
Ok, I have mentioned how much I like the bo6040 for cutting, but now I am attempting to polish with it and I am seeing better results from my PC...



I just cant seem to get the Makita with a white pad to produce the same gloss as the PC with a white B&S pad on speed 4. It seems like the PC is finishing better... I will keep you all posted.
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Is that with the BO6040 in forced-rotation or RO?



I'm guessing it's in RO mode, as I wouldn't *expect* the forced-rotation to finish as well (my Flex 3401 sure doesn't finish as well as a PC/GG/Cyclo).
 
David Fermani said:
From my understanding, this machine only allows use with 6 inch pads right? If that's the case, that wouldn't be viable option for me as I enjoy working with 5 inch pads too much. Larger pads are ok for large panels, but I still don't reach for them as they tend to not cut as much as 5 inchers. Regardless, this machine really looks like a solid unit.
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I think the reason a 5 inch pad might cut faster on a random orbital is that you're putting more pressure per square inch with the smaller pad. The forced rotation machine creates a lot more movement out on the edge of the pad due to spin so it cuts faster with a bigger pad and I apply a lot of pressure.



The Makita can finish down to cobweb free by running the product till there's just enough left to keep the pad from scuffing.



Robert
 
:nomore:Eight pages for this - geez. good fun reading it



The 6040 has been available in Australia for decades but at 650 bucks, I dont think so

Great tool I am sure. my problem with it is the OPM, if it had the same OPM range as the Makita BO6030 (use that currently for last step or the entire process) or the Metabo SXE450 which I am buying next (6mm and 2.8mm throw), then the 6040 would be a better tool I'd say



the 6030 is 4,000 to 11,000 with 3mm throw. the metabo is 4,000 to 11,000 and up to 13,000 with turbo button.

whack a surbuf, microfibre, rayon or other strong pad on either and they can correct and finish brilliantly without a wipedown needed. same goes for rotary too. I run at 600 to 1000 max and back to 600 slowly as I work the product. absolutely no need for anything more than 1200 rpm today, on any paint.



have two dynabrades also.



Todd - you blow me away with your technical mind. the makita vs flex numbers was over my head but that's cool. kudos to you sir



As for D300 - no idea if its filling. I dont use the well known products on the market and wont



Paint is porous to some point (solvents wouldnt outgas if they werent) and a product with alot of petroleum oils can with the use of a rotary, swell the paint if the heat is high enough and the oils can be absorbed. think that is whats going on. master kev may correct me if I am wrong (do not know it all thats for sure)



With an RO or DA, I would say that it is less likely due to very little heat or none being developed most often



As for wipedowns - I haven't done IPA or silicone remover wipedowns for a few years, there is just no need too anymore with the products I'm using. no solvents, thickener, heavy oils or emulsifier etc in them. it's a totally new formula. stuffs as runny as water



though I am doing a massive polish test for my column in Australasian paint and panel magazine (which the editor asked me too) and I agree with my mate porta - silicone remover is a great product to use to test for filling. I have some de beer SR in my shop



come on guys keep it simple hey.

unfortunately there are too many products with outdated formulas. most are exactly that



You dont absolutely have to be a rocket scientist to get a great finish these days. no stress if you under or over work the industry leading products. very forgiving and no nasty ingredients

better pad priming and technique will however win out but the gap is much smaller now.



polishing is supposed to be fun guys, dont overcomplicate it and make it stressful
 
WhyteWizard said:
I think the reason a 5 inch pad might cut faster on a random orbital is that you're putting more pressure per square inch with the smaller pad...
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I always thought it was because you could apply more pressure without the machine bogging down (due to less friction from the smaller pad). When I tried using the same/minimal applied pressure with smaller pads they didn't cut much, if any, better than the bigger ones :think:



Maybe *both* things factor in :nixweiss



SVR said:
polishing is supposed to be fun guys...
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Fun?!? Oh you crazy Autopian you.... ;) :chuckle:
 
you got that right mate - I am crazy - about polishing anyhow. it's very theraputic for me
 
I've never really understood why guys are so obsessed with finding fillers in products. Just properly remove any oils from the surface and you have nothing to worry about. The only time I ever had issues with fillers was PO106FF, and that was because even IPA sometimes wouldn't remove all the oils. Eventually I found a product that would, problem solved. I use D300 a lot. Have I seen it fill? Sure. I've seen just about everything fill to some extent. Clean the surface properly to see what you're really dealing with then move on.
 
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