The "Truth"

Picus said:
I've never really understood why guys are so obsessed with finding fillers in products. Just properly remove any oils from the surface and you have nothing to worry about. The only time I ever had issues with fillers was PO106FF, and that was because even IPA sometimes wouldn't remove all the oils. Eventually I found a product that would, problem solved. I use D300 a lot. Have I seen it fill? Sure. I've seen just about everything fill to some extent. Clean the surface properly to see what you're really dealing with then move on.
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Agreed! Do another pass or 2 and you're good to go. :)
 
David Fermani said:
Agreed! Do another pass or 2 and you're good to go. :)
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hah. I see what you did there. I guess it all depends on the marring you're dealing with, the paint you're working on etc.. When I use D300 I use it knowing it will do what I need it to do. I don't stretch it or try to make it do things I know it can't. That's what other products are for.
 
Wow. Garry Dean....sorry your thread got hi-jacked. But I have to admit, I was engaged in the reading...and find the comments quite intersting. I have enormous respect for you Garry. So, I guess it's sorry, and thanks...at the same time.



On topic...(have to get this comment out of the way first! haha)...The Makita BO6040 is a great machine. Used it many times. As switchables go, it offers good performance for the price point. Especially if you want to do sanding AND polishing with it. The orbit size and the speed range does very well for both sanding and polishing. You can find better sanders, and you can find better polishers...but this tool does both well.



The other topic...D300. D300 fills? Covers up swirls? Absolutely not. And of course it can. Truth! Both are true. I was lead on the development team so I know the product very well. I have also had the benefit of seeing the product in use in 9 different countries...different paints, different users, lots of variables. Rants and raves and pros and cons about D300 have been posted on every detail forum globally. So I've heard it all. Seen it all.



There is nothing inherant in D300 that is a filler. There is no intention, from product profile design to full scale production to global launch in 72 countries...no intention ever of having this product fill defects. It was made to remove them. That's what it does best. (Don't read into this statement...I'm not saying its the best. I'm saying...of all that it does, it removes defects best.)



Did Thomas experience defects come back after a wash? Did Barry see filling happen with D300? I don't/won't dispute either one. I 100% believe them. I don't doubt it one bit. I've seen it myself. But I do not make the leap to a conclusion that the product is therefore bad. That the product fills? That D300 should be something you have to be careful about because it will hide all your defects everytime you use it? Guys, do you think a product that consistently fills defects all the time would ever make it to a second-purchase by savy detailers? The product would have died in the first 3 months after launch.



Here's the deal. There are compounds and polishes that fill defects. The creator meant for them to fill and they have ingredients that cover defects. That's bucket one. Bucket two are compounds and polishes that are not intended to cover defects. They don't have fillers. These bucket two products have potential to cover defects, even though they were not intended to. The "filling" that happens in this case has less to do with the liquid product itself and more to do with two very powerful variables that impact everything anyone ever does while removing paint defects. All results are influenced by these two things; (1) the paint, specifically the paint porosity, elasticity, and topcoat hardness. (2) technique, how the user uses the liquid, machine, pad, backing plate, etc. Technique can further be dissected by five parts in everybody's technique with machine polishing (rotary or DA)...(1) tool speed, (2) arm speed, (3) downward pressure, (4) pad angle, and (5) application area. Watch anyone machine polish a car, and you will see variability in these 5 parts of technique. All of them together, influence the results.



If/when you find a car that D300 "fills" defects, you have also found a car that many other compounds and polishes may also act like they are filling. That paint might like a different chemistry, so some products will not cover up defects on that car. Some will. Unfortunately for us detailers, paint is a variable. The scope of its variability would blow your mind if you knew how vastly different paint truely is around the world. There exists a gazillion compounds and polishes out there...the business is sustainable for two reasons. Humans LIKE options. And paint NEEDS options. One size does not fit all.



As for technique...I can make D300 cover...not remove...defects on 10 cars in a row. Maybe even a 100. I dunno. I would hate to try it just to prove a point. I can also do the same with a competitors polish or compound. Does that make the product bad? Make it a filler product? No, just means I was doing something in the application process that got that result...repeatedly. Here....I will tell you how to make D300 fill defects. Fast tool speed, fast arm speed, light pressure, pad slightly tilted, and big application area. Hose on a lot of D300 on the pad and you have guaranteed cover up. You can do this technique on a deck lid for 3 days and you will get very shiny defect free paint...right up to the moment you wash it. Other ways to get it to fill? Use it with a foam pad. Use it with a rotary. The D300 compound was painstakingly tuned for DA application and Meguiar's DMC Microfiber Cutting Disc with specific backing plates. Period. End of story. And it does have a specific technique for best consistent results. Any other application method could result in something unintended, perhaps unpredictable, certainly not properly validated. Good or bad results....going outside the system is play time. Play to your hearts content, but then don't tell me the product doesn't work if you don't get the result you were looking for.



Garry, did I mention I like the Makita tool? (Sorry, I couldn't pass on the chance to educate here.)



Folks may not agree with what I have said. Some may not like me for saying it the way I did. But my heart is in a good place. The spirit of my message is that I sincerely want to help detailers understand their results better. There are 10 variables that impact machine polishing results. Most people like to focus on the liquid product. What about the other 9?



Hope this helps raise awareness.

Jason
 
Jason Rose said:
Wow. Garry Dean....sorry your thread got hi-jacked. But I have to admit, I was engaged in the reading...and find the comments quite intersting. I have enormous respect for you Garry. So, I guess it's sorry, and thanks...at the same time.



On topic...(have to get this comment out of the way first! haha)...The Makita BO6040 is a great machine. Used it many times. As switchables go, it offers good performance for the price point. Especially if you want to do sanding AND polishing with it. The orbit size and the speed range does very well for both sanding and polishing. You can find better sanders, and you can find better polishers...but this tool does both well.



The other topic...D300. D300 fills? Covers up swirls? Absolutely not. And of course it can. Truth! Both are true. I was lead on the development team so I know the product very well. I have also had the benefit of seeing the product in use in 9 different countries...different paints, different users, lots of variables. Rants and raves and pros and cons about D300 have been posted on every detail forum globally. So I've heard it all. Seen it all.



There is nothing inherant in D300 that is a filler. There is no intention, from product profile design to full scale production to global launch in 72 countries...no intention ever of having this product fill defects. It was made to remove them. That's what it does best. (Don't read into this statement...I'm not saying its the best. I'm saying...of all that it does, it removes defects best.)



Did Thomas experience defects come back after a wash? Did Barry see filling happen with D300? I don't/won't dispute either one. I 100% believe them. I don't doubt it one bit. I've seen it myself. But I do not make the leap to a conclusion that the product is therefore bad. That the product fills? That D300 should be something you have to be careful about because it will hide all your defects everytime you use it? Guys, do you think a product that consistently fills defects all the time would ever make it to a second-purchase by savy detailers? The product would have died in the first 3 months after launch.



Here's the deal. There are compounds and polishes that fill defects. The creator meant for them to fill and they have ingredients that cover defects. That's bucket one. Bucket two are compounds and polishes that are not intended to cover defects. They don't have fillers. These bucket two products have potential to cover defects, even though they were not intended to. The "filling" that happens in this case has less to do with the liquid product itself and more to do with two very powerful variables that impact everything anyone ever does while removing paint defects. All results are influenced by these two things; (1) the paint, specifically the paint porosity, elasticity, and topcoat hardness. (2) technique, how the user uses the liquid, machine, pad, backing plate, etc. Technique can further be dissected by five parts in everybody's technique with machine polishing (rotary or DA)...(1) tool speed, (2) arm speed, (3) downward pressure, (4) pad angle, and (5) application area. Watch anyone machine polish a car, and you will see variability in these 5 parts of technique. All of them together, influence the results.



If/when you find a car that D300 "fills" defects, you have also found a car that many other compounds and polishes may also act like they are filling. That paint might like a different chemistry, so some products will not cover up defects on that car. Some will. Unfortunately for us detailers, paint is a variable. The scope of its variability would blow your mind if you knew how vastly different paint truely is around the world. There exists a gazillion compounds and polishes out there...the business is sustainable for two reasons. Humans LIKE options. And paint NEEDS options. One size does not fit all.



As for technique...I can make D300 cover...not remove...defects on 10 cars in a row. Maybe even a 100. I dunno. I would hate to try it just to prove a point. I can also do the same with a competitors polish or compound. Does that make the product bad? Make it a filler product? No, just means I was doing something in the application process that got that result...repeatedly. Here....I will tell you how to make D300 fill defects. Fast tool speed, fast arm speed, light pressure, pad slightly tilted, and big application area. Hose on a lot of D300 on the pad and you have guaranteed cover up. You can do this technique on a deck lid for 3 days and you will get very shiny defect free paint...right up to the moment you wash it. Other ways to get it to fill? Use it with a foam pad. Use it with a rotary. The D300 compound was painstakingly tuned for DA application and Meguiar's DMC Microfiber Cutting Disc with specific backing plates. Period. End of story. And it does have a specific technique for best consistent results. Any other application method could result in something unintended, perhaps unpredictable, certainly not properly validated. Good or bad results....going outside the system is play time. Play to your hearts content, but then don't tell me the product doesn't work if you don't get the result you were looking for.



Garry, did I mention I like the Makita tool? (Sorry, I couldn't pass on the chance to educate here.)



Folks may not agree with what I have said. Some may not like me for saying it the way I did. But my heart is in a good place. The spirit of my message is that I sincerely want to help detailers understand their results better. There are 10 variables that impact machine polishing results. Most people like to focus on the liquid product. What about the other 9?



Hope this helps raise awareness.

Jason
Click to expand...



I definitely appreciate your well educated and well thought out post. The respect is mutual. Thank you, Sir.
 
I totally agree with you Jason. Enjoyed reading it all

arm speed is very important. thank you sir and of course Kevin



The 6040 is a cool machine. I have the 6030 RO with 10,000 opm and 3mm throw. it with a surbuf pad can correct quite well actually

But Im updating to a Metabo SXE450 very very soon. 6mm and 2.8mm orbit throw, 4,000 to 13,000 opm, 150mm plate size

That combined with all of today's new pad lineup and the next generation of pad materials I am working with a manufacturer on, will correct extremely well I am sure an also be my choice of final tool to touch the paint with each detail or refinish performed



Have six power tools with two dynabrades but a pro can never have too many tools right
 
Thanks Jason, you really spelled it out ....even the ol Bug caught a few tips and since I use a lot of D300, they will come in handy!
 
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