Reliable Luxury rides

MultiMut said:
Thought I'd add my thoughts...



As you many have indicated, the Japense brands will be more reliable (Lexus, Infiniti, Acura), but for the big flagship models, their offerings do not inspire passion.
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I think that very much depends on the person. I personally love the Lexus LS, and I would purchase one probably over a 7 or an S. They turn my head when they drive by. Just remember, you can't debate taste. Everybody's different and its impossible to be wrong.



IMO the vast majority of new cars (excluding exotics and P/U Trucks) are only designed to last 5 years or 175K miles before they're to expensive to repair.
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I definately disagree here. My 97 Explorer has almost 150k, its been through some reliability issues but its still going. You'd never know it had that many miles to drive it or to look at it. My dad just traded his 98 LS400 with 155,000 miles in on an 04 LS430, it never had any problems and again you'd never guess it was that high mileage to look at it or to drive it. I'm a forum manager over at the Lexus Owners Club, and we have members with 300-500,000 miles on their cars, no serious problems and they still look great from pictures. I think that if anything, cars last longer now than they ever have before.



I plan on driving my Lexus for a real long time.
 
MBZ 500E said:
Frankie,



Unfortunately you're spot on regarding the newer Benzes, they really don't live up to the previous generation standards.



Older Benzes were overengineered and overbuilt cars designed to last a lifetime with proper care. With the auto industry rapidly changing and competition from Japanese and now American manufacturers they've cheapened their cars to compete and have lost their way. Look at it like this.



In 1992 my car purchased new cost $83,000 before taxes and gas guzzler. My car has a 5.0 Liter DOHC 32Valve V8 producing 322HP. In 2003 you can purchase an E55 AMG with airmatic adjustable suspension, even more options inside and out and a 5.5 Liter Supercharged V8 with 496HP for $72,000! Some will argue that manufacturing costs have gone down but not nearly at the same rate as inflation. So Daimler has had to cut costs somewhere right? This cost cutting is apparently occuring in shorter development times (reason why new models have so many problems) and materials of construction. Their throwing new technology out too quickly and ironing out the problems using the public. Pretty stupid strategy if you ask me. It's only a matter of time before people are fed up and move on to other brands.



I will say that BMW seems to be on a similar track with their latest offerings. Lexus is a bit smarter as they wait for technology to stabilize before offering it to their customers, they're thinking long term.



IMO the vast majority of new cars (excluding exotics and P/U Trucks) are only designed to last 5 years or 175K miles before they're to expensive to repair. Then it's off to the recycler and time for a new car. Japan actually forces the Japanese consumers to junk their vehicles after 5 years to insure less polution! It is not a law but the registration on used vehicles are so high (in the thousands) that it wouldn't make sense to keep an older vehicle.
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I respectfully disagree. IMO, the price it cost to develop and make the 500E was nowhere close to the $83K MB asked for. During 1992, Mercedes wanted to maintain their exclusive (I dare say, false) image of going beyond reason. It's that brand technique that gives them their Teutonic and overbuilt impression.



Perhaps they now want to expand their market. Without losing profits, they reduce MSRPs (they still make lots of $$$) and increase volume. They market it, hoping consumers accept the extra cost (over an Audi or BMW, etc.) as justifiable.



As far as the price going down and problems going up, it's likely related to all the electronics they now throw in. A W211 is much more complex than a W124.



I don't think it's "bad" to fall for such manufacturer tactics... I've owned BMWs (the second most profits-per-car) and Pinnacle waxes, so I know that feeling...



My two cents :)
 
BW,



Actually development cost for the 500E had to be pretty high and here is why:



The frame rails had to be widened for the engine to fit. The transmission tunnel also had to be widened for larger beefier tranny. The chassis had to be stiffened to handle the additional torque and provide the handling characteristics MB wanted. The suspension was revised and custom struts and hydraulic shocks were added. All of this custom work was done by hand at Porsche, all raw materials were shipped from MB to Porsche by truck. The only body panels taken from the standard W124 were the rear doors, trunk and hood. MB had to provide new tooling to build the new body panels which isn't cheap. Additional engineering and the Porsche labor cost had to play a significant role in the overall cost of the car. In comparison a 92 W124 400E could be purchased for $54K with all options.



I guess we can disagree on older MB's, IMO after owning an 84 190E, a 97 VW, an 00 Accord, an 02 CRV and my 92 500E as well as seeing my parents 84 300D, a bunch of Mazda's and even more Toyota's I can honestly say the materials and engineering in the older MB's was way beyond what was required. They really are built like tanks and they stand up to time and use better than anything I've referenced. All of the cars I've owned except for the two MB's have always felt looser and slightly worn right around 70Kmiles. Of course this is based on my experience.



You're right about the W211 it is significantly more complicated than an W124 and yes that is part of the reason the cars have more problems.



BTW you seem to have a pretty good handle on MB's, which forum do you frequent?:)



Different opinnions are always good, otherwise life would get boring.;)
 
Heh, I frequent MBworld.org, but only have like one post over there. So many interesting topics to get into, but with Autopia, I never have the time!



Thanks for your info on the 500E. I thought the differences were "only" to an "E500 vs. E55" extent.
 
I admit comparing the 500E to the current E55 is not the best example considering the manufacturing differences.:doh I guess I was looking at it more from a performance standpoint.
 
Buy an Audi A8. From 2000 on, the reliability was pretty good and the build quality is top notch. My 97 had transmission issues, but my understanding is that they took care of that with the 98 Tiptronic transmission. All wheel drive, 300+ horsepower in a lighter package than the BMW or MB. I just got back from a 600 mile round trip to Detroit, with about 90 miles of twisty secondary highways. Average 75 MPH and got 26 MPG. Got out of the car and didn't at all feel like I'd been in a car half the day.



I believe Accumulator has an S8. Even better!



SamIam
 
Yeah actually, and the A8's have lower resale than the Benz and BMW mostly because of fear about the alluminum infastructure. You could probably get a great deal on one...
 
well juding from my neighbors audi experience i would NEVER touch one, he hardly drove any of his and they were always taken away on a flat bed or at the shop, even when he sold one the people came back on the block with the car sputtering and dying out not even 5 mins later since they bought it. he has since switched brands since they were nothing but money pits, consumer reports has a real bad rating on them.



i do like the cars styling and some have nice performance ideas



someone had mentioned exotics and reliability on here



are cars like ferrari and lambo's, aston martins, etc reliable or are they just show off toys. i hardly seen any with high mileage, makes me wonder if these things can last the long haul. cars for that much money should go forever, with very minimal problems and shouldnt just be sitting in some garage forever. do these cars have any expirtaion date at 15-20k miles cause i never seen one advertised with 50-100k miles plus even thew older ones



i know there very expensive to mantain with tune ups etc like there servuce intervals run thousands i have no idea why though thats crazy for a tune up and some other routine stuff



any thoughts?
 
Frankie said:
well juding from my neighbors audi experience i would NEVER touch one, he hardly drove any of his and they were always taken away on a flat bed or at the shop, even when he sold one the people came back on the block with the car sputtering and dying out not even 5 mins later since they bought it. he has since switched brands since they were nothing but money pits, consumer reports has a real bad rating on them.



any thoughts?
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Which manufacturer are you talking about here?
 
Frankie,



I mentioned exotics and looking back I realize I shouldn't have placed them in the same league as a P/U truck or reliable car. Exotics are typically not reliable (Ferrari, Aston Martin etc) but these cars are cared for by their owners and stay around longer. I wonder now if the manufacturers of these cars continue to build parts for them to support long term ownership. I've personally seen a few Ferrari's with high 70 - 90K miles and they look pretty good.
 
Cars like Ferraris, Aston's, Lambo's are normally owned by people who do not question "how much" things are. When they place their bat and ball in the game they usually know the price of admission and the rules of the game. $$$
 
As I mentioned above, I'm thinking about purchasing a 2000 up M3. However, I've read on quite a few threads and forums about engine failure in the E46 models. I don't know if it was authentic or not, but I saw a recall on the oil pump that came out in 2003 urging all owners with S54 engines to get that replaced. I plan on purchasing an extended warranty, but I still don't want a car that sits in the shop all the time. Any input would be appreciated.



**EDIT** Here's the link on that recall information. Recall
 
I have always wanted a Ferrari and I have looked into getting a 348 as the prices have dropped on them (the actual car is still a little out of range) but the real cost of ownership is the maintenance (which I can't afford). I disagree that Ferrari's are unreliable. Modern Ferrari's are actually quite reliable when driven . The problem is that most owners of these cars do not drive them regularly and any car will develop potential problems while just sitting around because various seals, rubber, belts, and rubber hoses tend to dry out and deteriorate, which leads to problems when they are driven. There is local doctor who is a car fanatic and regularly drives his 360 to work, in all weather, and has virtually no reliability problems (there has been a couple quality control issues on small things like plastic clips not being installed correctly inside the door and causing the pass. door not to operate correctly). When I say fanatic, I only mean that he really likes and appreciates a car for what it is. That said, he does not take the best care of them as they are usually in need of a good detail. I don’t fault him though because he does drive them.



As you stated the tune up maintenance intervals are much more frequent than your average car and the work is very labor intensive and cost big $$$, not to mention the cost of parts. The 360 Modena is one of the first Ferrari’s that much of the scheduled maintenance does not require dropping or partially dropping the engine, it allows for easier access for oil changes (through rear wheel well I think) and other common maintenance issues (water pump is accessible through the back of the interior cabin). Even though the 348 and 355 are considered modern, they both required partial and/or full engine drops for much of the regular maintenance (timing belts and water pumps, etc.).
 
Frankie said:
well juding from my neighbors audi experience i would NEVER touch one, he hardly drove any of his and they were always taken away on a flat bed or at the shop, even when he sold one the people came back on the block with the car sputtering and dying out not even 5 mins later since they bought it. he has since switched brands since they were nothing but money pits, consumer reports has a real bad rating on them.
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How old were his Audis?



Audis of the late 90s, 2000+ are GREATLY improved.
 
My brother in law bought a used Ferrari, an early 80s Magnum PI 308 I believe, fuel injected low mileage. Hard top.



My neighbor, from Great Britain, saw it and commented that my brother in law must be doing ok for himself. I mentioned, " I think he only paid around mid 20s for it."



His response, "But then, it's not the cost of the car that's the issue, is it. Go talk to him when he needs to get it maintained."
 
Jake11375 said:
As I mentioned above, I'm thinking about purchasing a 2000 up M3. However, I've read on quite a few threads and forums about engine failure in the E46 models. I don't know if it was authentic or not, but I saw a recall on the oil pump that came out in 2003 urging all owners with S54 engines to get that replaced. I plan on purchasing an extended warranty, but I still don't want a car that sits in the shop all the time. Any input would be appreciated.
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The problems with S62 engine were traced to connecting rod bearings failing under stress, the issue has been addressed since and all M3s received extended warranty on the engines.

Service Action should be conducted on all engines produced from 10/01/2001 to 02/28/2002 and it includes replacement of oil pump, connecting rod bearings and reprogramming of DME control module.



Majority of the failures occurred in cars produced between October and December of 2001 and I would probably stay away from these cars even if service action was performed.



You have to remember that M3 will not be as reliable as your run of the mill 3 series but for a car with that kind of performance it is very reliable and with proper maintenance (not cheap, just a quart of oil alone is $8-$12)) it will make you smile for a long time.
 
well i know a few guys at my firm with exotics and they are really concerned with getting ripped off for paying 15k for a tune up, or something breaking with this and that, just cause they have lots of lots of money doesnt mean they enjoy spending it needlessly and recklessly making some dealership wealthy for routine service and getting banged over the head for parts and labor.

so the ones i know qusetion where there money is going, even though there multi millionaires they worked hard for it and should be treated fairly just like everyone else, not taken for a ride cause they have alot of paper.

i do agree with them ANY car that cost big bucks should ONLY require routine upkeep not a lemon with 100 recalls, electrical glitches, engine and drivetrain problems, after all for all that money you would expect that they have done there homework and research in developing a trouble free car that should last for many many years.
 
Late entry, but pertinent topic for my family. My mother's J30 of 10 years was handed off to my sister roughly 7 months ago. My mother has always pined for a BMW since her last one in the late 80's (735i). Since that time, she has driven an LS400 ('92), a Landcruiser ('00), and the J30 ('93). My father has owned the LS ('92), a brief 60K mile stint with a SC300 ('95), and his current sled, another LS ('96).



He has kept me up to date with the "mom's car" progress. They first picked out a '99 540i with @30K miles because of the deal they received. That ownership period lasted three weeks, because the car was in the Teutonic garage for two of those weeks. The BMW place swore up one side and down the other that it was a lemon and I'll give that one to them. NO car manufacturer is perfect.



Next, they "gave" the 5 back and selected an '01 740il (she did NOT want the i-Drive space shuttle joystick (a debate for another day/forum). This model had 40K miles off-lease, came BMW certified and in the perfect color. They took delivery and dropped it off at the BMW place within one week. On a road trip from VA to Chapel Hill, the air conditioner soaked the passenger footwell. The problem was fixed ("not a big deal, really") and returned to its owners. Within three days, the a/c began to sound like a percolating Mr. Coffee machine. Were the vehicle to produce caffeinated brew, then the sound is okay. Seeing as it didn't, car must visit its sick friends at the BMW hospital. Car visits shop twice for this problem inside a week (was not fixed the first time). According to my father, when the BMW service manager was presented with the evidence:

over 400K on three Lexus' ("Lexi"?) and one Landcruiser, only one headlamp, oil and filters, and tires needed replacing



3K miles on two BMW's with 8 visits to the shop



...he responded with, "that doesn't surprise me, Lexus/Toyota is simply not as complicated as a BMW."



Disclaimer: I visited while they had the 540i and that vehicle is simply in a different class from any other highway cruiser. BMW is truly a driver's sedan. No other manufacturer can approach the feedback from the steering wheel of a Beemer. Not one. It clamored for more at any speed and seemed to always have a little more under your right foot. Also, all vehicles are crafted in a different way by a different combination of human and machine. They will differ in quality even within specific marques and makes.



Personal preference must reign supreme here--do you want the "Ultimate Driving Experience" offered by zee Germanz or do you want the bulletproof assurance of the "uncomplicated" LS? I do grant you that the LS is nowhere near as satisfying around town or in the twisties. For ME (WARNING: PERSONAL PREFERENCE) I have to take the vaultlike assurance of the LS430 for my primary vehicle and get the S2000 for my "fun" driving.



For now, grad school dictates a little more fiscal reality:)
 
It's hard to find a luxury car that was truly well cared for. Leased vehicles are especially tainted. Even though BMW N.A. provides free maintenance for the warranty period many leased cars don't see any maintenance till the dash lights up like a christmas tree. I've heard of more than one horror story where the cars are towed in with a seized motor because the oil hasn't been checked for 30-40K miles and the owner still wants it fixed under warranty.



If I was in a market for a used BMW I would look for a car that was purchased and cared for by enthusiast. In many cases you will get the car that received additional preventative maintenance and in my book it's worth way more than dealer's CPO program.

CPO cars are not a bad choice but only if they have really low mileage.





BTW beemer is a BMW motorcycle, bimmer is a BMW car ;) .
 
BTW beemer is a BMW motorcycle, bimmer is a BMW car
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I did chop down that cherry tree, and that WAS a typo:up

(nose growing longer, longer, longer...)



FI, thanks for the info--I had always wondered the geneology of that.
 
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