New M105 is kicking but w/ KB method

DSVWGLI said:
Hey all, haven't been here or posted in a while. I've seen a lot of posts referring to some "KBM" method for polishing with the PC. Isn't this the same as a lot of us have done for years, except now we have M105. Years ago I said you are wasting your time if your not using a lot of pressure and going slow with the PC. The only difference now is the introduction of the non-diminishing abrasives in M105. Is this correct? I use to remove nasty heavy swirling from black paint with a PC, but usually needed 2 more steps to clear things up. Now we can go strait to a finishing polish. I recently tried M105 with my PC, as my rotary is being repaired, and find it rather remarkable. I've done a few cars with a white LC pad and with a Megs cutting pad with fantastic results. Then finished with 106FA to a perfect finish. The process however is just the same as I have always done, it's the M105 that makes the difference. just my .2 worth.
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Yes. As I've said before it's basically detailing 101 from my understanding. I was really taken back by alot of the top guys being so awe struck by this method like it's never been done before (really makes me wonder how these guys were polishing cars before this enlightenment) Regadless of new v. old method it's a great method and every rookie detailer should at least have this as very basic understanding to polishing (I tought my 13 y/o this when he was just 11 on his mom's car ;) ) It's extreamly simple to understand and very very effective.
 
Jakerooni said:
Yes. As I've said before it's basically detailing 101 from my understanding. I was really taken back by alot of the top guys being so awe struck by this method like it's never been done before (really makes me wonder how these guys were polishing cars before this enlightenment) Regadless of new v. old method it's a great method and every rookie detailer should at least have this as very basic understanding to polishing (I tought my 13 y/o this when he was just 11 on his mom's car ;) ) It's extreamly simple to understand and very very effective.
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Yes it is a very simple process that I figured out years ago in a matter of a couple of hours with a PC. Good info for the new guy's though.
 
Jakerooni said:
Yes. As I've said before it's basically detailing 101 from my understanding. I was really taken back by alot of the top guys being so awe struck by this method like it's never been done before (really makes me wonder how these guys were polishing cars before this enlightenment) Regadless of new v. old method it's a great method and every rookie detailer should at least have this as very basic understanding to polishing (I tought my 13 y/o this when he was just 11 on his mom's car ;) ) It's extreamly simple to understand and very very effective.
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Please don't be a wimp and point the finger directly. :)



I'll just send an email to Kevin Brown and tell him to quit wasting time writing that paper as Mr Jakerooni himself says its just detailing 101. :2thumbs:
 
There seems to be an enormous amount of time and effort going into making this paper for what looks like a fairly simple approach to using the PC and M105. Last I read the paper was 18 pages and counting. If I were to write a paper on everything I have learned over many years of detailing it wouldn't come close to 18 pages. Thats not saying much for my knowledge is it :o. Now I'm not saying it's not good info, but what gives?
 
gmblack3a said:
Please don't be a wimp and point the finger directly. :)



I'll just send an email to Kevin Brown and tell him to quit wasting time writing that paper as Mr Jakerooni himself says its just detailing 101. :2thumbs:
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Bryan why would I do that? It's not Kevin fault you guys can't seem to comprehend basic detailing techniques that are taught to every detailer I've ever personally known. He's just making it simple for you guys to understand. And as I said from what I can tell so far it's just what I consider basic detailing 101. I have not read this 18 page paper. Maybe there's something there. Some magical uber secret special technique that can only be explained via this magical paper. I'll give him that benifit of the doubt until I see it and can address it for myself. And I personally think what Kevin is doing it pure genius. Coining his own method becuase no one else ever bothered putting into writing. Now that's what we call business 101. Kevin is not the problem here. It's you so called "Top notch" high end detailers that have never figured this out for yourself's that make this the problem. I seriously can't figure out how you guys polished cars before this? Obviously you guys we're doing something right as you got the reputations you guys all got somehow correct? And how is pointing the finger directly being a whimp? Seems to be the most adult and logical thing to do. Am I supposed to sugar coat and save your precious feelings? Would that make it all better for you bryan? I mean I don't want you getting all pent up over this mis-understanding or anything. Your feelings are what are most important to me here. Ohhhh what can I do to make you feel better here? Please let me know. :heelclick
 
Jakerooni-As an amateur detailer/weekend warrior myself, I think the big hoopla over the KBM was more about the time it typically takes to remove swirls with a DA vs a Rotary. The big surprise IMO through all this are the pros (not me) that were putting the rotary on the shelf in favor of a DA. SAY WHAT?!?! Being that I ONLY have a DA, someone like me is thrilled to consider maybe not getting a rotary afterall. I've only been at this "hobby" for about 2 years and like most newbies, I REALLY wanted to eventually step up to the rotary. I already had both the 105 and 205 on the shelf so this explanation was kinda like a win for the DA crowd. And this all kinda came about during the "if you aint using SIP and a rotary then you might as well be using nu finish" time period.



I've got the original 5-6 page write up that was removed within hours of it being posted but I snatched it up prior to then. Out of respect, I just keep it to myself. I'm mostly a AIO/1 stepper detailer anyway so I'm not sitting here in great anticipation but everyone likes a good read.
 
I dont think I will try this method....Im going with the PM (Perferd Method)...I will post the write up next week or next month or next year so please hold your breath...Also you can find this method in the detailing 201 handbook but if you dont know where that is sorry...
 
Jakerooni said:
Bryan why would I do that? It's not Kevin fault you guys can't seem to comprehend basic detailing techniques that are taught to every detailer I've ever personally known. He's just making it simple for you guys to understand. And as I said from what I can tell so far it's just what I consider basic detailing 101. I have not read this 18 page paper. Maybe there's something there. Some magical uber secret special technique that can only be explained via this magical paper. I'll give him that benifit of the doubt until I see it and can address it for myself. And I personally think what Kevin is doing it pure genius. Coining his own method becuase no one else ever bothered putting into writing. Now that's what we call business 101. Kevin is not the problem here. It's you so called "Top notch" high end detailers that have never figured this out for yourself's that make this the problem. I seriously can't figure out how you guys polished cars before this? Obviously you guys we're doing something right as you got the reputations you guys all got somehow correct? And how is pointing the finger directly being a whimp? Seems to be the most adult and logical thing to do. Am I supposed to sugar coat and save your precious feelings? Would that make it all better for you bryan? I mean I don't want you getting all pent up over this mis-understanding or anything. Your feelings are what are most important to me here. Ohhhh what can I do to make you feel better here? Please let me know. :heelclick
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Jakerooni,



I still can't believe you turned down that deal with the geek, they could not get you so they went out and got the next best thing Mr Mike Phillips.



You are the true master of detailing, everybody knows that Flint, MI is the epicenter of detailing.
 
Good grief...



The "KBM" or pad priming is only one page of the paper. It's simple and easy to do. But, this thing is so much more.



I don't know how many pages it is up to, but it's way over eighteen.



Here are just a few of the topics covered:

-Rotary vs. Orbital vs. Forced Rotation Orbital vs. Random Orbital

-Dual Mode Machines

-How a rotary removes scratches

-How a Random Orbital works



That is even before it gets into pads, backing plates, speeds, and liquids.



Here is an example of what you can expect in the paper:

DAspeeds.jpg




These curves were formed by placing pens in the random orbital to demonstrate the differences in pattern between speed one and speed six.





Kevin and I have been conversing about this paper for a long time, so I know what it is really about. He has been consulting with the top experts in the field in order to obtain the facts. For example, he's working with a physicist right now on centripetal force and orbits.
 
Wow.

Sorry to see drama over the "paper". :wow:



It is a work in progress. As I have posted several times, it was originally a just a one page e-mail to a friend. As I sent it around, it became two, then three. At that point I decided to just continue writing! :wall



Really though, the additional information is not so much about how I use the random orbital with M86 and M105. Rather, it is just a logical approach stuff like pad cleaning, backing plate sizing (and how it affects polishing performance of the pad), and stuff like that. I figured if the basics were covered, a guy that was new at this stuff might get a better result if he had some knowledge of the basics. Now I agree that there is more than enough information out there- but, I decided to write my opinions and observations on the subject! Nothing wrong with that, right?



The thing is, I completed a version of this beast back in October, 2008. At that time, it was indeed twenty pages, and contained four diagrams. This new version? Egads, I don't even know how many diagrams! Plus, I have added several sections.



As an example, the diagrams that PorscheGuy997 posted are a close up of the pattern (just as he stated). Still though, it takes time to put things together. I had to create the pattern (I ripped a dozen or so pieces of paper getting the ones I got!). I tried cut down pencils, crayons, and finally ball point pens ( and what a mess it made). Then I have to add text and graphs. Then it has to make sense. Many times, it makes sense to me, but I check with various people to see if it makes sense to them. Sometimes it does, but many times a recommendation or two comes back and I modify the graphic and text.



It was fun making that particular portion of the paper and it will inform, but it does take a lot of time to do. As most of you know, if you cannot see a project through in one long session, it will likely take much longer to complete it if you have to do it in segments. Same deal for me.



One particular diagram has about sixty hours into making it, and guess what? I have to change a few things again! I am currently dialoguing with two guys that are WAY smarter than me. We are trying to dial in terminology relating to a certain topic, and it takes time. We all have jobs, so we can only work on this a bit here and there.



For what it's worth- I did not name any method the "Kevin Brown Method".

Todd Helme simply stated on a post that he used "Kevin Brown's methods of madness" (or something like that), and it transformed into the "Kevin Brown Method." He also mentioned that I was working on a "thesis" about the subject. That is when the deadline started to loom... :grrr



Billy Aylward took some advice and misted a bit of water on a panel while he was using a wool pad and the rotary. He saw an incredible increase in performance, wrote about it, and referred to IT as the KBM.



Bryan Burnworth took some advice after reading a post about the Surbuf. He has put all of the posted info into effect, and he is seeing fantastic results. Don't forget- he was a very qualified detailer way before he even tried any of these "methods".



I put some information out there for all to see. A lot of guys appreciate it, some already know what I know, and others just blow it off. Either way, it is okay with me. I don't expect any acknowledgement for it. The bottom line is; I feel satisfaction when I help a guy get a better result than he was getting before I chimed in.



If you are anxious to see the "paper", please know that I am trying to work on it every night for an hour or two, and an hour in the morning if possible. It will be done, but there is a bit to go. I figure it will end up at forty pages. One other thing- none of the added info relates to the actual procedure, or info about the liquids. It is all pictures, diagrams, and new information about added topics. That's all! :getdown
 
Wow it seems that you are going above and beyond the call of duty here.

Anyone else thinking the detailer medal of honor is in store here?



Im looking forward to reading the paper but please take your time, I have had to write thesis's and dissertations and i know how difficult and drawn out it can be. So once you are ready to release it we will be more than ready to read and learn.
 
Saleenfan said:
Wow it seems that you are going above and beyond the call of duty here. Anyone else thinking the detailer medal of honor is in store here?



Im looking forward to reading the paper but please take your time, I have had to write thesis's and dissertations and i know how difficult and drawn out it can be. So once you are ready to release it we will be more than ready to read and learn.
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Thanks! No medal of honor needed. :heelclick

I decided to do this for my enjoyment. If it informs and makes sense, I will be proud. There are some great how-to's available all over then net pertaining to car waxing and polishing. This one looks hopefully looks at things a bit differently. It is written informally as far as paragraph indents and whatnot (not at a college level structure wise, but overall it should be a decent read).



For me, the dynamics that take place... the cause and effect stuff- it is fascinating.
 
Kevin, I very much appreciate all the hard work you are putting into the paper.



For me the best part of what I have learned from you is being able to do true correction that will pass multiple IPA wipedowns w/ ease.
 
Kevin Brown said:
.. This ..hopefully looks at things a bit differently. ..[focusing on] the dynamics that take place...
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Which is a huge part of why it oughta be so interesting, even if one already has a handle on how to polish paint (not that there isn't always more to learn).



Heh heh, I'll be interested to see how your final paper compares with all the "KMB" info that people (think that they) already have learned.



Sounds like exactly the sort of thing I had to do when teaching without a decent textbook, I'm actually a bit envious that you have such a cool task on your plate.
 
Hi all.



Still working on it.

I am kinda stuck on two diagrams right now... Can't seem to get the text just right.

While it has been interesting, I am getting frustrated with all the additions.

One thing leads to another, but there is not a lot of repetition of stated info.



As previously mentioned, I have not added any information relating to the use of the buffing liquids. All the new stuff is related to the random orbital.



Right now, I am working on a section that discusses how these parameters affect polishing performance, and how they work together:



  • Oscillation speed setting
  • Stroke size
  • Orbit speed
  • Backing plate rotational speed
  • Kinetic energy

Doing diagrams, too. A tough area to write about, but SUPER important. Thanks for being patient. :thx
 
Kevin Brown said:
Hi all.



Still working on it.

I am kinda stuck on two diagrams right now... Can't seem to get the text just right.

While it has been interesting, I am getting frustrated with all the additions.

One thing leads to another, but there is not a lot of repetition of stated info.



As previously mentioned, I have not added any information relating to the use of the buffing liquids. All the new stuff is related to the random orbital.



Right now, I am working on a section that discusses how these parameters affect polishing performance, and how they work together:



  • Oscillation speed setting
  • Stroke size
  • Orbit speed
  • Backing plate rotational speed
  • Kinetic energy

Doing diagrams, too. A tough area to write about, but SUPER important. Thanks for being patient. :thx
Click to expand...



Looking forwared to the completed product. Thanks for doing this. I know it will be will worth the wait.
 
Kevin Brown said:
Hi all.



Still working on it.

I am kinda stuck on two diagrams right now... Can't seem to get the text just right.

While it has been interesting, I am getting frustrated with all the additions.

One thing leads to another, but there is not a lot of repetition of stated info.



As previously mentioned, I have not added any information relating to the use of the buffing liquids. All the new stuff is related to the random orbital.



Right now, I am working on a section that discusses how these parameters affect polishing performance, and how they work together:



  • Oscillation speed setting
  • Stroke size
  • Orbit speed
  • Backing plate rotational speed
  • Kinetic energy

Doing diagrams, too. A tough area to write about, but SUPER important. Thanks for being patient. :thx
Click to expand...



thanks for your patience and dedication. it will definitely be worth the wait.
 
Being a newb, I really appreciate all your time, effort, and energy that you're putting into this paper! I look forward to learning more!



Thanks
 
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