rwisejr
New member
KnuckleBuckett said:
Nope not yet !!!!!!!!!
New M105 is kicking but w/ KB method
- Thread starter gmblack3
- Start date
Nope not yet !!!!!!!!!
The following is my short explaination of the KBM:
Prime the entire face of the clean/dry flat orange pad, ensure you have polish in every pore.
Apply 3-4 dots of M105 to the pad.
Apply enough pressure at speed 6 so that the pad is still spinning, but slowly. Ensure that the pad is spinning and not stopped.
Wipe the M105 from the surface with a MF and inspect the area. If the M105 become difficult to remove from the surface wipe it away with straight IPA.
After each use wipe the pad accross a MF to clean the pad. Then apply 4 more dots of polish and repeat.
After a few uses brush the pad clean and blow compressed air to clean out the dust. You will still see residual polish on the pad.
After so many uses the pad will loose its cut as its just clogged with too much polish and clear from the surface.
Clean the pad by spraying APC 1:4 onto the pad and wash it w/ warm water in the sink. Make sure you get all the soap and polish rinsed out. Spin the pad out into a bucket with your PC or a rotary if you have one. Let the pad air dry fully by placing it in from of a fan.
Of course you will need more then a few pads to complete this process.
Prime a fresh pad and ****t again.
If you have any 4" orange pads and the proper backing plate, use the above method to spot polish those deeper scratches.
Follow with M205 and a white or gray flat pad using the same process as above, you will not have to work the areas as long. If you don't have M205 use a finish polish with a white pad.
Prime the entire face of the clean/dry flat orange pad, ensure you have polish in every pore.
Apply 3-4 dots of M105 to the pad.
Apply enough pressure at speed 6 so that the pad is still spinning, but slowly. Ensure that the pad is spinning and not stopped.
Wipe the M105 from the surface with a MF and inspect the area. If the M105 become difficult to remove from the surface wipe it away with straight IPA.
After each use wipe the pad accross a MF to clean the pad. Then apply 4 more dots of polish and repeat.
After a few uses brush the pad clean and blow compressed air to clean out the dust. You will still see residual polish on the pad.
After so many uses the pad will loose its cut as its just clogged with too much polish and clear from the surface.
Clean the pad by spraying APC 1:4 onto the pad and wash it w/ warm water in the sink. Make sure you get all the soap and polish rinsed out. Spin the pad out into a bucket with your PC or a rotary if you have one. Let the pad air dry fully by placing it in from of a fan.
Of course you will need more then a few pads to complete this process.
Prime a fresh pad and ****t again.
If you have any 4" orange pads and the proper backing plate, use the above method to spot polish those deeper scratches.
Follow with M205 and a white or gray flat pad using the same process as above, you will not have to work the areas as long. If you don't have M205 use a finish polish with a white pad.
Accumulator
Well-known member
gmblack3a said:
I do better wiping off tenacious M105 residue with #34 as compared to straight IPA; I seem to get less micromarring that way due to the added lubricity.
EH...I never thought to discuss this with Kevin Brown when we were talking
But Mike Phillips also likes #34 for such stuff.Not intended as an :argue by any means, hope it didn't come across that way.
Accumulator said:I do better wiping off tenacious M105 residue with #34 as compared to straight IPA; I seem to get less micromarring that way due to the added lubricity.
EH...I never thought to discuss this with Kevin Brown when we were talking
Not intended as an :argue by any means, hope it didn't come across that way.
I believe that Kevin has mentioned using #34 to me in the past. I'll have to pick up some and give it a try. Thanks for the reminder.
Ge|atinousFury
New member
So, for someone new to machine detailing with a 7424XP and a 2006 black 350Z with minor swirl marks (from normal handwashing), would this KBM with M105 be too much cut? It's hard to guage how much cut to start with since I've never done this before.
M105 & orange pad?
M105 & white pad?
M205?
etc. etc.
What products would you start with using the KBM? :think:
M105 & orange pad?
M105 & white pad?
M205?
etc. etc.
What products would you start with using the KBM? :think:
Accumulator
Well-known member
Ge|atinousFury said:
Better get some info from somebody who's worked on the vehicle/paint in question.
Kevin is the first to say that his method is *NOT* for beginners, but IMO a lot of it is good technique for *anybody. Priming the pads properly, for instance. Note that it's based on the use of nondiminishing abrasive products, such as M105/M205. Diminishing abrasive products will work differently because the pad will end up loaded with broken-down product (as opposed to somewhat dried-out but NON-diminished/not broken-down product that can still do work).
Applying a lot of pressure is something you should probably work up to as you gain experience.
FWIW, I'm changing my opinion about doing the M105 with a white pad as the intermediate step; I'm now leaning more towards using M205 instead, but with a somewhat aggressive pad.
IMO the M105's hazing is gonna happen no matter what pad you use because it's the *abrasives* that're the issue. Getting aggressive with M205 (and this is about the only "finishing polish" I'd do this with) can take care of the hazing and leaves things that much closer to the final finishing step.
The above is based on inspections via SunGun, which show the residual M105 hazing better than anything else I've tried. But it's also based on work with hard clear, so YMMV.
Could be that just M205/orange, with a more gentle M205 follow up, would do the trick, but I'm just not familiar with your paint.
PresdntialDtail
New member
Accumulator said:
Im glad this combo is catching on, I use it on almost every car now with AMAZING results. Its aggressive enough to remove marring from a PFW/M105 and finishes down LSP ready MOST of the time.
Accumulator
Well-known member
PresdntialDtail- Yeah, I tried it at ebpcivicsi's suggestion and, per usual, he was right on the money.
I might be in the minority here (and I'm catching it for this opinion on anothe thread..), but I have yet to see M205/orange finish out to my satisfaction. But then I'm not doing very many vehicles with it either and maybe the ones I've done were ringers.
I really want somebody to try the Griot's orange pad and/or the new tangerine colored LC one. Used via Flex 3401 I can't say enough about that Griot's orange/M205 combo- cuts almost like a LC orange but finishes out great IME.
I might be in the minority here (and I'm catching it for this opinion on anothe thread..), but I have yet to see M205/orange finish out to my satisfaction. But then I'm not doing very many vehicles with it either and maybe the ones I've done were ringers.
I really want somebody to try the Griot's orange pad and/or the new tangerine colored LC one. Used via Flex 3401 I can't say enough about that Griot's orange/M205 combo- cuts almost like a LC orange but finishes out great IME.
I know KB doesn't really want anyone out there to release anything defining his method until his paper is released, but I for one have had problems with the KBM. I hear all these people getting amazing results but both cars I have tried it on, I ran into problems.
I think it would be beneficial for a good number of people, if someone could make a youtube video of proper pad priming and their particular technique for achieving such good results. I know scottwax has made a few videos on PC polishing lately and they are great. He explains what hes doing and shows the complete process all the way through. If someone (who is getting great results) could do something similar to that but with their version of the KBM (or at least what they assume it to be) and release 1 or 2 videos on youtube, I think it would help out a lot of us trying to get the results but frustratingly running into roadblocks.
I am aware that there are small written blurbs concerning cliffnotes about the KBM, but I think sometimes it helps more to actually see whats going on and hear the person talk about what they are doing as they do it.
Anyone want to contribute?
I think it would be beneficial for a good number of people, if someone could make a youtube video of proper pad priming and their particular technique for achieving such good results. I know scottwax has made a few videos on PC polishing lately and they are great. He explains what hes doing and shows the complete process all the way through. If someone (who is getting great results) could do something similar to that but with their version of the KBM (or at least what they assume it to be) and release 1 or 2 videos on youtube, I think it would help out a lot of us trying to get the results but frustratingly running into roadblocks.
I am aware that there are small written blurbs concerning cliffnotes about the KBM, but I think sometimes it helps more to actually see whats going on and hear the person talk about what they are doing as they do it.
Anyone want to contribute?
dheath said:
i also agree with this post.
writers try their best to translate their thoughts onto a paper or article, but often times the reader could walk away with a different mindset. when it comes to the details of "detailing", some could probably benefit more by a visual explanation.
after all, this is a hands on hobby.
dschribs
New member
I have to agree. And I've actually used "the method" with 205/105 and the finished product came out ok. In no way do I have enough experience with it where I'd feel comfortable making a video of the process though.
SuperBee364
New member
To really get 205 to finish down to its full potential, IMO, it is important to use a no bite pad. It isn't really fair to say that a polish isn't finishing out very well if you are using a pad with *any* kind of bite to arrive at that conclusion. You can never really be sure that the finish you are looking at is what the polish is *capable* of producing unless you used a zero bite pad to get there.
Using an edge white foam (functionally zero bite, but a little stiffer than their red pad) with M205 and a PC gives some pretty darn impressive correcting and finishes down *very* nicely. I think the finish gained is worth the very small amount of cut lost vs. an LC orange pad. Save the pads with bite for the 105; work the 205 with a zero bite pad for max gloss.
In the past, some guys have said that zero bite pads just aren't capable of working diminishing abrasives down as they should, but since we aren't using diminishing abrasives, that argument doesn't really apply (and honestly, I never agreed with it, really, but that's just MO).
Using an edge white foam (functionally zero bite, but a little stiffer than their red pad) with M205 and a PC gives some pretty darn impressive correcting and finishes down *very* nicely. I think the finish gained is worth the very small amount of cut lost vs. an LC orange pad. Save the pads with bite for the 105; work the 205 with a zero bite pad for max gloss.
In the past, some guys have said that zero bite pads just aren't capable of working diminishing abrasives down as they should, but since we aren't using diminishing abrasives, that argument doesn't really apply (and honestly, I never agreed with it, really, but that's just MO).
Hey guy's I haven't been on here in a while but thought I would give some feed back on M205 & M105, which I have been exclusively using this year. I am amazed with the results. I don't follow the KBM as I think it's a little over hyped. I just use the polish like any other polish, more or less, and it works beautifully. I put a little more polish on initially, then use much less after that. After every panel or so I spur the pad so it doesn't build up any polish. If you let it build up it will not work as well, but that goes for any polish. I'm finding that I'm using the PC instead of the rotary with 105 & 205. I don't know if it's because they are non-diminishing abrasives or just the consistency, but the rotary just isn't as smooth and effortless with these polishes. That's ok though because I get amazing results with these polishes and the PC. Anyway back to the polishing. I start with good pressure and keep it on until things start to clear up, then I back off the pressure to almost none and turn the speed back to between 4 & 5. Using this method I get stunning results on black paint regardless of how hard the clear is. I have done this with M105 with a orange pad on black paint and gone straight to an lsp. If the paint is a little softer, I have used a white pad with M105 and gone strait to an lsp. I find these polishes to be almost fool proof. They are the easiest polishes I have ever used, and I have used a lot over the years. I prefer these polishes to Menzerna even. I guess I just don't understand all the confusion with using these polishes. Start with good pressure and then back off to finish out, it's really that simple. If you play around a bit with different pads and pressure you will quickly see what works and what doesn't.
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
dheath said:
I also think this is a great idea.
It would be nice to know exactly what the "KBM" is.
From what I have gleaned, in a nutshell, it's:
1) priming the pad by using your fingers to rub the polish into the pad
2) using pressure on the pc
I know I must be over simplifying, but that's why I agree with the above post.
Kevin Brown
New member
dheath said:
Yo! Thanks for the questions and insight.
Still writing the paper, but October and November have been VERY busy for me, so not a lot of time was available to work on writing.
For what it is worth, I am not opposed to guys telling other guys how to use the "method". There is sooo much out there already about it. My concern was that I did not want blurbs of a paper to be released prior to me finishing it! There are a few guys that have the 20-page version in their possession, and a bunch more that have various e-mails pertaining to the actual procedure.
I was ready to post the info over a year ago, but feedback pointed to a need for more information regarding the random orbital (and the way it really works). so, I have been adding information to supplement the already written portion of the paper. [/quote]
dheath said:
I recently posted up a bunch of stuff on detailingworld in response to a guy's "request" :nervous2: :
Kevin Brown Method - Detailing World
dheath said:
Here's the thing about videoing of the method- It would be hard to distinguish the fact that there IS any difference in the procedure being used (as compared to just using the random orbital in an everyday manner).
And that is the thing- the METHOD (as it is thought of in my paper) is more a THOUGHT PROCESS rather than a procedure, if that makes any sense. It's about minimizing the negative effects of using the random orbital with puffy foam pads, and MAXIMIZING the positive traits of the machine, pads, and liquids. To do this, a guy needs to have a thorough understanding of the dynamics that take place as he is using the machine (the way it is outfitted at that time).
The paper reveals no magic, no secret handshake, no specific hand placement or pressure specifics (I don't even get into specifics on which pad to use). It is just a bunch of information that many guys know but may not even realize they are contemplating as they use the machine. So, don't freak out if you don't see the magic bullet fly from the pages of the document... there aren't any !! :buffing:
gmblack3a said:
Thanks a lot for this summary! I have a few questions though:
What do you mean by passes? The way I understand it is that when I, for example, work on a 1 ft^2 area, a pass means when the 105 dries, you put 4 more drops on the pad and re-work the same area...repeating a few times until satisfied. Am I correct in my thinking? Judging by most of you guys, 2-3 passes suffices.
Another question, when I go on to do the black or white LC pad (not sure which is better for 205) should I still go ahead and use speed 6, or do I need to slow it down a little?
Afterwards, I put my lsp on red pad, but not sure which speed is best for that.
Any insight?
Thanks!
Accumulator
Well-known member
SilverJag said:
We never reach a concensus
There are "passes" in the sense of how many times you move the polisher across an area before you stop to inspect/buff off residue. With M105 this amounts to maybe 6-8 trips across the area with the polisher.OTOH, there are "passes" in the sense of how many times you polish/buff off/inspect (this is sometimes called a "section pass").
*I* work smaller areas than that, but that' just me. Yeah, you seem to have the right idea although I try to *NOT* let the M105 dry completely. Since the abrasives don't break down anyhow, I'd rather still have some oils/carrier agents keeping the product damp when I'm wiping it off. Also, I like a little spritz of #34 when doing this.
Just depends. On hard clear with significant marring I've done a whole lot more than that. *IME* the M105/KBM, while much more efficient than some other (also effective) approaches, doesn't work miracles when it comes to how long this stuff can take.
Depending on the paint, I often prefer a pad with a little cut (or even quite a bit of cut), at least for all the but very final section pass. If you want to finish with a zero-cut pad, I'd get the new Meguiar's black finishing pads that are made for using M205 for this.
Depending on how much micromarring I get from the M105 I often use something like the LC tangerine pad (actually, I use the Griot's orange which is different from other orange pads).
I usually use speed 6 but I've also done OK with slightly lower speeds (but only for the final passes).
I usually use speed 4.5. See what works best with the product in question, the idea is that you don't want to flash it too fast; it's all about not using too high a speed. Too low a speed seldom has any drawbacks other than wasting time.
Accumulator
Well-known member
SilverJag- Happy to help a fellow Jag owner. Mine's even silver too...well, "Rhodium metallic".