imported_series1
New member
Best thing said so far. Bring back the Trans Ams and Camaros!Joshua312 said:
Latest Rental-A Pontiac G6
- Thread starter SilverLexus
- Start date
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
SilverLexus said:
I'm sorry, you WERE comparing it to a Lexus when you made the comment "Can't wait to get home and drive my own car...� Judging it on it's own merits? I thought you were just bashing a stripper base model rent-a-car. Have you had other rental cars which you actually enjoyed? I usually think to myself when I am driving a rental car "hmm...this could have been a decent car if only they had optioned it out properly". The secret to getting a good GM car, for the past 50 years, has always been knowing which RPO boxes to check on the order form, as several (including myself) have pointed out.
SilverLexus said:
Hmm....seems to me there are plenty of Toyota Camry rental cars...is that because it's the only way they can get rid of them?
SilverLexus
Super Enthusiast
You sure are grouchy Mike. Just an interest in getting back to my own car is certainly not a comparison.
It may have been stripped down somewhat but if you read my list it pertains to things even loaded cars would have. Mine had power everything, XM Radio (which sucked in this car), and some other features.
But the difference here is that people are also buying Camrys. The G6 has not been a sales success last I read.
I think we all know the General can build a crappy car. What some people refuse to accept is they can build damn good cars, too. They just might not appeal to what YOU look for in a car. That doesn't mean they're not good cars.
Yes, sales are down at GM, and right now, a lot of their cars suck. I'm the first to admit it. However, taking all things into consideration, they still build the most exciting cars for the money, IMO.
Yes, sales are down at GM, and right now, a lot of their cars suck. I'm the first to admit it. However, taking all things into consideration, they still build the most exciting cars for the money, IMO.
Spilchy
New member
Setec Astronomy said:
As well as the Prius. My dad rented one and I felt like a total tool riding in the back seat with my folks up front. :rofl
People can view the interior shots of the Pontiac for themselves if they want: http://www.pontiac.com/g6coupe/gallery.jsp
I specked out for sh!ts and giggles a G6 GTP coupe with some options and it seems like it would be fun to drive, nice and sporty (fit & finish is another story I assume):
Check it out
Style:
Selected Style: GTP
18-inch five-spoke painted aluminum wheels
Single-zone automatic climate control
Engine: 3.9L V6 SFI
Six-way power-adjustable driver seat
StabiliTrak Vehicle Stability Enhancement System
4-wheel antilock brakes, including Full Function Traction Control
Premium 8-speaker Monsoon high-performance sound system
Sport suspension
Dual Exhaust
Exterior:
Liquid Silver Metallic
Interior:
Ebony Nuance Leather-appointed Seats Seat Type: Seats, front, 45/45 bucket, reclining
Options:
Brakes, 4-wheel antilock, 4-wheel disc, includes a traction control system
Engine, 3.9l ho v6 sfi
Tires, P225/50R18, summer-only, performance, blackwall
6-speed manual
Premium Value Package 2:
Includes 18" (45.7 cm), alloy, ultra-bright, 5-spoke, flangeless (GTP), (CF5) Sunroof, power and (UC6) Sound system, ETR AM/FM stereo with 6-disc CD changer, in-dash $1,650.00 Seats, heated, driver and front passenger, (seat cushion and back) No Charge Sound system feature, XM Satellite Radio, features 67 channels of 100% commercial-free music included in its over 150 channels of the best in music, news, sports, talk, comedy, XM Instant Traffic and Weather, and more.
Sound system, ETR AM/FM stereo with 6-disc CD changer, in-dash, electronically-tuned, includes Radio Data System, seek-and-scan, digital clock, auto-tone control, TheftLock, random disc function, graphic equalizer and Driver Information Center
Sunroof, power, tilt-sliding, includes sunshade
MSRP: $26,055.00
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
You bet I'm grouchy. I'm tired of people insinuating that we can't make anything worth a damn in this country. We're in a lot of trouble here. First the unions, then the corporate raiders, then the MBA CEO's, who only give a crap about the quarterly stock results and their golden parachutes, have destroyed our once-great manufacturing infrastructure. Long term planning? What is that? All I care about is whether I get my bonus. The people who refuse to even give a US product a chance because the grass is always greener, the people that made honest, blue-collar work something to be ashamed of, are also to blame. And let's not forget the MBA CEO politicians, who only care about the election cycle, and refuse to live up to the government's responsibility to do the RIGHT thing, not the politically popular thing.
Stupid management, stupid politics, and stupid prejudices all led us to this conversation. Lee, the car you drove may have had power everything, that doesn't make it anymore than a base stripper. Just as has been discussed before with trim/equipment differences in families of cars, whether it be the GM Epsilon(?) family or Camry/ES, an upmodel G6 might have markedly different suspension components/tuning, different steering gear, different/higher quality interior materials/seats, different engine/trans/calibrations, which transform it into a different car.
I have been a loyal GM man for many years. Right now my latest GM, which I have had for 16 years (I checked the right RPO boxes,
), is sitting out in the rain, while an Asian car sits in its place in the garage. Not that GM can't build a good car anymore, but because they don't build the car that I wanted (a small sporty hatchback at GM? not anymore). Like many companies before them, GM has become clueless because they stopped building what THEY wanted to build, and started trying to figure out what worked for other people or what people wanted to buy...they became a follower, rather than a leader. Their only recent glimmer had been Cadillac, with the love it or hate it Arts & Science styling...of course, now you can't tell one model from the other anymore, because they tried to make them all look like the first (successful) one, the CTS, because they are only following the success of the CTS, not leading with their next innovation.
Perhaps sometime soon, my old GM sedan will yield to a new (GM?) sedan...and my imported hatchback will be sitting out in the rain...
Stupid management, stupid politics, and stupid prejudices all led us to this conversation. Lee, the car you drove may have had power everything, that doesn't make it anymore than a base stripper. Just as has been discussed before with trim/equipment differences in families of cars, whether it be the GM Epsilon(?) family or Camry/ES, an upmodel G6 might have markedly different suspension components/tuning, different steering gear, different/higher quality interior materials/seats, different engine/trans/calibrations, which transform it into a different car.
I have been a loyal GM man for many years. Right now my latest GM, which I have had for 16 years (I checked the right RPO boxes,
), is sitting out in the rain, while an Asian car sits in its place in the garage. Not that GM can't build a good car anymore, but because they don't build the car that I wanted (a small sporty hatchback at GM? not anymore). Like many companies before them, GM has become clueless because they stopped building what THEY wanted to build, and started trying to figure out what worked for other people or what people wanted to buy...they became a follower, rather than a leader. Their only recent glimmer had been Cadillac, with the love it or hate it Arts & Science styling...of course, now you can't tell one model from the other anymore, because they tried to make them all look like the first (successful) one, the CTS, because they are only following the success of the CTS, not leading with their next innovation.Perhaps sometime soon, my old GM sedan will yield to a new (GM?) sedan...and my imported hatchback will be sitting out in the rain...
SilverLexus
Super Enthusiast
Where did I say that? In fact, I said that GM makes some good cars. They just make crappy ones as well which is the point of this thread. I like the Z06 and some of the F-Bodies. I also like certain Cadillacs.
I don't understand why you attack CEOs with an MBA. They are not responsible for GM's crap designs. They are doing their jobs by looking after shareholder value. No well-trained MBA would have made many of the mistakes that GM management has made. As you suggest (and we both agree on this point
) GM has lost sight (in most places) of what the consumer wants.It's about what the customer needs not whether America, or in GM's case Mexico
, can build a decent car. I did not mean to imply that. Honda and Toyota make a great American-built car.By the way, I buy mostly hand-built in America audio gear. Of course if another country ever does it better or cheaper I will buy from them. It's a global economy after all and that benefits all of us.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
SilverLexus said:
Doing their jobs by looking after shareholder value? That's an MBA's view of a CEO's job. Ask Henry Ford or Jack Northrop (if you could), Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc. etc. etc. if their primary job is "looking after shareholder value". That's what followers do...the MBA CEO's who followed the guys with the real vision into that job. 20 years from now when Bill Gates is just a memory there, and Microsoft is in the shape GM is now, it will be because the CEO is "looking after shareholder value".
No well-trained MBA would have made those mistakes? Ha! I don't think you get to be CEO of GM without being "well-trained". The problem is, innovation and entrepreneurship can't be reduced to an MBA formula. I haven't checked this, but I would be willing to bet that Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell don't have MBA's...but I'll but Skilling, Lay, Ebbers, and Kozlowski all do. How many successful companies were started by MBA's? How many formerly great companies have been run into the ground by them?
This as usual has been reduced to beating a dead horse. You stay in your red state and I'll stay in my blue one.
Oh...PS...if the CEO isn't responsible for the "crap designs", who is? If the company is putting out crap designs, it's his job to do something about it...oh wait, he's busy "looking after shareholder value"
SilverLexus
Super Enthusiast
Absolutely. That is the very definition of capitalism. But the biggest contributor to shareholder value is revenue and if you don't take care of the consumer they go down the street where they are treated better. That is why we all win under capitalism-it's a pro-consumer, pro-innovation framework.
Lots of MBA and non-MBAs have started successful companies. Many of the successful investors from hedge funds to venture capital funds have MBAs. I don't have the degree but I work often with people who do and the finance and project management skills you learn in such programs is invaluable in business from startup to corporate life. Skilling and others had ethics problems but that affects of all the population, not just the MBAs. Look at all the corruption in non-MBA labor union leadership.
SilverLexus
Super Enthusiast
Kanchou, I think that's true. Part of the blame may lie with unions for not being more flexible (ie. can GM lower production even if it wants to?) and part may lie with managers grossly mis-forecasting demand.
GM has made cool cars that have choked corporately, both to nickel and diming, poor reacting to consumer direction. I'm sorry, the Fiero was totally awesome, and the platform has amazing potential but when it went to production, it went all 'parts bin.' and it never recovered from the first year of production problems (partly because of lack of corporate backing.)
it seems like theres lots of infighting at GM when you look at some of the other cool ideas that died.
Anyone remember the Pontiac 6000? its 83' STE beat out a BMW 3 and a Benz in handling, offered air suspension, AWD, i think even a digidash at one point. How about the Grand Prix Mclaren? Same engine block as the 6000, but with a turbo.
Remember the Beretta? There was talk of wedging a tt v-6 or v-8 and the AWD from the 6000 into it. An article can be found with a prototype build somewhere on the net.
the 96 impala rwd? I've heard people say that it handles well enough to keep up with cars weighing 1000 lbs less. And the Darth Vader car?
GM needs to take a lesson on 'halo car' branding. The Corvette can't carry the company when NOTHING from it is practically applied to any other car in the company...
it seems like theres lots of infighting at GM when you look at some of the other cool ideas that died.
Anyone remember the Pontiac 6000? its 83' STE beat out a BMW 3 and a Benz in handling, offered air suspension, AWD, i think even a digidash at one point. How about the Grand Prix Mclaren? Same engine block as the 6000, but with a turbo.
Remember the Beretta? There was talk of wedging a tt v-6 or v-8 and the AWD from the 6000 into it. An article can be found with a prototype build somewhere on the net.
the 96 impala rwd? I've heard people say that it handles well enough to keep up with cars weighing 1000 lbs less. And the Darth Vader car?
GM needs to take a lesson on 'halo car' branding. The Corvette can't carry the company when NOTHING from it is practically applied to any other car in the company...
Setec Astronomy said:
I think I see the point you're trying to make, but no company builds what THEY want to build. They build what will sell on the open market. THEY might have what they think is a great product, but if it doesn't sell then who cares? You have to be innovative AND in tune with what the market wants. GM hasn't done both at the same time in quite a number of years. This is why they are getting their a$$ handed to them by companies like Toyota and Honda.
imported_truzoom
New member
I think it's fair to say this argument probably won't find an end point, but all the points brought up so far have been very insightful.
I'll throw in my defense of Pontiac to say that I preferred the Trans Am versus the Camaro any day. Such sexy curves and outrageous styling that plain looked fast.
Oh yeah.. and the greatness that was the large female population that loved to drive Firebirds. Back in high school, seeing a Firebird with some sort of decorative nicnac hanging from the rear view mirror meant 3 things.
Hot.
Unavailable.
But oh so tempting!
I'll throw in my defense of Pontiac to say that I preferred the Trans Am versus the Camaro any day. Such sexy curves and outrageous styling that plain looked fast.
Oh yeah.. and the greatness that was the large female population that loved to drive Firebirds. Back in high school, seeing a Firebird with some sort of decorative nicnac hanging from the rear view mirror meant 3 things.
Hot.
Unavailable.
But oh so tempting!
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Tasty said:
Sure they do. Did Henry Ford build Model T's because some consumer survey told him there was a market for it? No, he did it because he had a vision of affordable cars. Did GM build the Corvette because people were clamoring for a glass bodied sports car? No, they did it because someone with vision said we can build a sports car that will knock the world on it's ***. Did Toyota pioneer hybrid technology when gas was $1 a gallon because people were in showrooms shunning huge SUV's and saying "where are the hybrids?". No, they did it because they had the vision to see that gas was priced artificially low, that it was the right thing to do, the technology to have, and that's why they have tons of hybrids available, while GM tries to buy SUV buyers, and explain why hybrids really aren't such a good idea (since they don't have any).
If you are a leader, you do what you think is right, what you think is best, and if you are right, the market comes to you. Or you can be a follower, and try to second guess, come to the party late, and get left behind.
imported_Aurora40
New member
Setec Astronomy said:
GM actually does have hybrids. But GM chose to make hybrids in an area that had a lot of room for improvement. A car like a Prius takes a 40mpg car, and turns it into a 45 mpg car. Small econo cars are not where improvement is needed, or at least not the most effective place to make improvement.
GM has for several years been building a fleet of diesel hybrid commuter busses. The first one went into service in 2000 with the Orange County Transit Authority. I believe by now they have well over 500 busses in over 30 cities, which would save about a million gallons of fuel annually. They deliver about 60% better fuel economy compared to a traditionally powered bus.
Of course you've probably never read that in any mainstream automotive media, because what fun is that? It's more fun to try to kick a large American company.
On the topic of Pontiac, I don't believe I've ever owned one. I'm not taking it personally. I think that claiming a company makes cars no one would buy, simply because you didn't like one, is a bit absurd and inflammatory.
GM, like any car company, builds a car to a certain set of compromises. These may or may not match up with your preferential set of compromises. But that doesn't mean they don't match up to anyone's.
Where else can you get a hardtop convertible for $28k? What if you want a roomy family sedan, but with 300hp and the ability to drive in bad weather? You could have a GP GXP out the door for just over $25k. What compares with that? The base G6 starts at $16,300. Not exactly a lot of money. What other cars of comparable size are there at that price point? An Accord or Camry start at $2-4,000 more.
You don't like the car, that's cool. But no one should like them, or they have no value? It really depends on what you value...