Heat while polishing?

B

Bluedog

New member
today was my first time using the Plexus plastic polish/cleaner. i used it for my front head lights and my rear signal lights, as well as the plastic that encloses the guage cluster and plastics on my head unit.



first impression was very good when i sprayed it on my front head lights. i picutred the product to be wet and liquidy, something like the basic glass cleaner u spray on and wipe off. but to my suprise the stuff it sprayed out was actually a tiny bit pastey, a good thing.



now that i sprayed a bit on the plastic, i buffed it with a normal cotton towel and wiped it with a dry cotton towel afterwards.

and thats it...



results: made the plasitc noticeably cleaner and clearer to a pretty big extent. left the surface super smooth like i just claybared and used ppcl. very staisfied:up same results appeared on all the plastic peices i used. i love this thing!



over all im very happy i got this thing. one can will last me a very long time since i barely use it since theres not alot of plastic on my car and a little goes a long way. highly recommend it:D :up
 
Hey Ng,



Were there any scratches there to begin with? If so, what did Plexus do to these? There must have been minor rock 'dents' and stuff on your headlights for this stuff to work on.
 
both inside and out...its great for the instrument panel and radio stuff...also the running light covers.....everything i know about it is thats its like 303...but for plastic,acrylic,and fiberglass type stuff.....it doesnt fix anything(scratches..etc)...it cleans/polishes..protects.....i think the can said something about 'filling "in minor scratches...but i think thats like a Z5 kinda thing if you know what i mean....if the scratch is that visible than Plexus aint fixing it....IMHO....so i mainly use it for protection and cleaning...it never streaks....to be honest....i started using it for the instrument panel 2 yrs ago mainly....i hated when my other car got a tiny scratch there....i had to look at it all the time...oh.thats annoying...so thats why i got it...i dont spray it on...i wipe it on...let it set up for a few secs...then wipe off....Ng good job...:up
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by puterbum [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Hey Ng,

Were there any scratches there to begin with? If so, what did Plexus do to these? There must have been minor rock 'dents' and stuff on your headlights for this stuff to work on. [/b]</blockquote>
like it was said, it isnt made to really fill in scratches and hide them. it does help reduce the appearance of fine scratches though. which all adds up to a cleaner smoother look to all the plastics i used it on. most of the stuff i used it on had very very minor scratches if any.
 
Nice review Ng. I agree 100% with your findings. I also like it because of the "controlled" circular spray pattern that Plexus leaves, a nice ring of material and it doen't spray all over the place. Another product worth trying is Brillianize, also a one step plastic cleaner polish but it's a spray pump not aerosol.
 
I was curious to know what everyone's take is on heats role in correcting paint?

You hear a lot of mixed opinion on the topic and my purpose of starting the thread is to share back and forth and ultimately come to a universal opinion through our thoughts and experience on the matter.

Before I moved down to Tampa I had a few body shops I did hourly work for. I sanded and buffed a lot of fresh paint in those 3 years. The nibs and junk were initially sanded down by the helper or body guy until I grew tired of chasing "chasers". Many times these bothered me to the point of trying to get more out of polishing passes than chemically and physically possible, which lead to an abundance of heat on more than one pass.

As odd as it seems, the more heat I would generate based on touch alone, it seemed the less defects would be taken care of. Deeper scratches laughed at the higher rpm, slower rotary movement. The polish was always a pain to remove as well, you either wipe it off quick while the paint was hot and vulnerable to the point the softest of towels would marr the finish, or let it completely cool down and risk the residue bonding more.

Fast forward 5 years, once again I am sanding and buffing a few cars a month for an auto restorer. His body guy suggests there is a certain amount of heat needed to correct paint. Come to find out that wasn't exactly scripture, it just so happened that every time he polished a car he increased the temperature considerably.

I had come to the conclusion along with many of you I'm sure, that heat is an unwanted bi product of pad to paint friction. It's not even a necessary evil in my opinion. The last time I witnessed ample heat induced while polishing was the first time I saw the flex in action 3 years ago. Regular pressure, pretty slow movement by the operator and an orange lc pad. He heated that paint so fast it seemed you could pull it off like a fruit roll up, when he wiped the panel he marred the heck out of the paint with a fresh microfiber.

I don't often feel the temp after polishing but I never notice any amount of temperature change. I know there is one due to the mechanical action taking place on the surface, but it doesn't even register on bare skin.

My theory is this, If heat was a key component to paint correction why don't any of you mention what temp to raise the paint to during initial correction? If it is needed to fix damage then wouldn't a yellow lc pad generate more heat than a finishing pad because it is far more dense not to mention the cell structure? What temperature should the paint be during final polishing? These seem like very important questions if heat is such an contributor to our success. If not, I think we are giving heat a little too much credit.
 
This should be interesting, I will watch to see whats shakin on this thread, :D
Heat softens by nature and causes expansion, cold ,just the opposite,causes contraction and things to be more brittle, the warmer the paint is ,the more mills will be removed....or can.
 
Flash Gordon said:
What your saying makes since to me. However, I don't know any other way unless you throw ice packs on the paint :)
Click to expand...

Many detailers on this site are second to none. If a cool pack would keep more material on the car I am sure we would be seeing them in every write up. The temperature of the surface is never on my mind, like I said earlier the temp. change is never that apparent. This is why it is my belief it is merely a bi product and not a need. Others don't agree with this, and I'm not saying they are wrong at all, just want a conclusion to this topic.
 
Brian_Brice said:
Many detailers on this site are second to none. If a cool pack would keep more material on the car I am sure we would be seeing them in every write up. The temperature of the surface is never on my mind, like I said earlier the temp. change is never that apparent. This is why it is my belief it is merely a bi product and not a need. Others don't agree with this, and I'm not saying they are wrong at all, just want a conclusion to this topic.
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm with you. I will be watching this thread, but I doubt it will get much response as ppl will be scared there answer may make them look like a hack :)
 
Flash Gordon said:
Hey, I'm with you. I will be watching this thread, but I doubt it will get much response as ppl will be scared there answer may make them look like a hack :)
Click to expand...

That's a shame if true. I don't think a member here would judge another detailer based on what his reasoning was. Not to mention the information involved in this industry changes often, and I'd be surprised to hear anyone here say they didn't learn at least a piece of what makes them what they are today from the internet. What makes this any different?
 
Brian_Brice said:
That's a shame if true. I don't think a member here would judge another detailer based on what his reasoning was. Not to mention the information involved in this industry changes often, and I'd be surprised to hear anyone here say they didn't learn at least a piece of what makes them what they are today from the internet. What makes this any different?
Click to expand...

Heat is a very interesting topic, and really think about it, what is burned paint ?
Its caused by friction and heat....loaded pad, which will happen quickly if the paint softens by the heat....it wont hurt at all to pick the bones clean on this topic....:StarWars:
 
I agree with what you said Brian, that heat is a by-product and not really necessary. Look at the polishing power and capability for defect removal from a G110v2 or a XC3401VRG (or even a PC7424XP!), DA polishers are very capable tools and don't generate much heat at all (especially compared to a rotary).

If heat was good, then why don't we polish in the sun?
 
Heat is good for paint and is a biproduct of pad to paint friction
most often its a dried up foam pad spinning at really high rpm on a rotary moved too slowly over the paint that causes burns and also bubbles from delamination of the clear coat, binders and colour coats.
I began experimenting last year with reflowing the paint on some of our race cars with banged up panels that were due for repair and repainting

from this, I was able to successfully buff at 3000 rpm on my makita 9227 with the same 1 inch per second movements with all varieties of foam pads and special non abrasive polishes from Australia and USA. even on plastic bars. without damage.

as long as there is sufficient lubrication on the pad (we used a few drops of parrafin oil), paint on metal panels (not GRP) can be buffed for long periods without any damage, even though the temp of the paint would be so hot that it was almost in a semi fluid state.

we did achieve some level of reflowing and orange peel reduction due to the heat and the special products used
However we also achieved what is known as "PAINT TWIST"

here is a recent post from a true professional I know on another forum I just lurk on

Heat is a vital part of getting the paint perfectly polished but it can also be its own own worst enemy.

Too much heat and the paint can 'twist'. Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.

What does this mean?

Well, the result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line.


Heat is caused by friction and as the type of paint systems used by different manufacturers varies greatly, so do the way they respond to polishing and the different temperatures of heat generated.


eg, honda paint is soft and sticky and when machine polishing with a rotary generates alot more friction and therefore heat than the same polish/pad/machine combo than say are harder type of paint like VW.

So you have to factor in these variables to machine polish safely.
If you do not understand different paint and polish systems and know their limitations and also your own limitations then heat can be very detrimental.


On the other hand, heat is very very important in polishing, it warms the paintwork and makes it softer so you can use a mild polish with a mild pad but with a higher buffer speed and increased pressure on the pad to create more friction without removing too much thickness so you can cut slowly but well and more importantly finish down nicely, preventing buffer trails and holograms.



Im my opinion, if you are scared of a little heat in the panel then you do not know how to control the heat due to inexperience and also dont fully understand the benefits of heat in the frst place.


____________
Custom Car Care Wagga- Supplying premium detailing services throughout the Riverina


on some panels, we simply drove the defects further into the paint and softened the paint significantly. not ideal at all.

you can correct without much heat as is the case with DA's due to their 6000 - 12000 OPM speeds and very large orbit throw (FLEX 8mm orbit throw)
however if you want to reduce orange peel a little bit, make the paint easier to correct, especially when dealing with scratch resistant powder coat clears, ceramiclear and powdered paints (liquidless system) and semi reflow the paint, then 1800 to 2700 rpm speeds with non abrasive polishes will achieve this.
However its a big risk and we only do this on certain paints and those that have not been cut back twice by other detailers.

when correcting, its smarter to use microfibre machine pads, silk wool, foamed wool or natural 4ply twisted wool or light cut foam pads and use lower rpm speeds with a little pressure and .5 inch or 1 inch per second movements and a little some pressure or focus the abrasives by polishing a smaller area than to use traditional methods of 1500 - 2200 rpm with synthetic wool (causes more swirls and increases risk of burning paint) and use heaps of pressure and move the machine too slowly.

self healing reflow paint doesn't like much heat, high rpm's and wool pads. you'll hurt the paint if you treat it that way and make life harder for yourself.
 
Dream Machines73 said:
Heat is good for paint and is a biproduct of pad to paint friction
most often its a dried up foam pad spinning at really high rpm on a rotary moved too slowly over the paint that causes burns and also bubbles from delamination of the clear coat, binders and colour coats.
I began experimenting last year with reflowing the paint on some of our race cars with banged up panels that were due for repair and repainting

from this, I was able to successfully buff at 3000 rpm on my makita 9227 with the same 1 inch per second movements with all varieties of foam pads and special non abrasive polishes from Australia and USA. even on plastic bars. without damage.

as long as there is sufficient lubrication on the pad (we used a few drops of parrafin oil), paint on metal panels (not GRP) can be buffed for long periods without any damage, even though the temp of the paint would be so hot that it was almost in a semi fluid state.

we did achieve some level of reflowing and orange peel reduction due to the heat and the special products used
However we also achieved what is known as "PAINT TWIST"

here is a recent post from a true professional I know on another forum I just lurk on

Heat is a vital part of getting the paint perfectly polished but it can also be its own own worst enemy.

Too much heat and the paint can 'twist'. Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.

What does this mean?

Well, the result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line.


Heat is caused by friction and as the type of paint systems used by different manufacturers varies greatly, so do the way they respond to polishing and the different temperatures of heat generated.


eg, honda paint is soft and sticky and when machine polishing with a rotary generates alot more friction and therefore heat than the same polish/pad/machine combo than say are harder type of paint like VW.

So you have to factor in these variables to machine polish safely.
If you do not understand different paint and polish systems and know their limitations and also your own limitations then heat can be very detrimental.


On the other hand, heat is very very important in polishing, it warms the paintwork and makes it softer so you can use a mild polish with a mild pad but with a higher buffer speed and increased pressure on the pad to create more friction without removing too much thickness so you can cut slowly but well and more importantly finish down nicely, preventing buffer trails and holograms.



Im my opinion, if you are scared of a little heat in the panel then you do not know how to control the heat due to inexperience and also dont fully understand the benefits of heat in the frst place.


____________
Custom Car Care Wagga- Supplying premium detailing services throughout the Riverina


on some panels, we simply drove the defects further into the paint and softened the paint significantly. not ideal at all.

you can correct without much heat as is the case with DA's due to their 6000 - 12000 OPM speeds and very large orbit throw (FLEX 8mm orbit throw)
however if you want to reduce orange peel a little bit, make the paint easier to correct, especially when dealing with scratch resistant powder coat clears, ceramiclear and powdered paints (liquidless system) and semi reflow the paint, then 1800 to 2700 rpm speeds with non abrasive polishes will achieve this.
However its a big risk and we only do this on certain paints and those that have not been cut back twice by other detailers.

when correcting, its smarter to use microfibre machine pads, silk wool, foamed wool or natural 4ply twisted wool or light cut foam pads and use lower rpm speeds with a little pressure and .5 inch or 1 inch per second movements and a little some pressure or focus the abrasives by polishing a smaller area than to use traditional methods of 1500 - 2200 rpm with synthetic wool (causes more swirls and increases risk of burning paint) and use heaps of pressure and move the machine too slowly.

self healing reflow paint doesn't like much heat, high rpm's and wool pads. you'll hurt the paint if you treat it that way and make life harder for yourself.
Click to expand...

I totally 100% disagree with your statement and rationality of thinking about this subject. Please provide proof that you can reflow paint.
 
I didnt read every post in here but as from what ive seen personally it all depends on the paint itself. Like Lexus's for me the hotter I can get it with my makita the faster stuff comes out and the better it looks. But with the Ferrari I just did, when I tried that it would almost make the paint look dull. So I had to work at much slower cooler speeds. Same with the Corvettes recentely, it seems the slower I go, with the less heat build up the easier it is to remove heavy swirls/marring/light scratches. But even with the deeper stuff the slower I move when cutting the easier they come out. Up until recentely I would get the paint super hot bc I thought that was the only was to remove anything. That was the way I learned. Well On single stage semi's that is the way to get things out :biggrin: In my mind it all depends on paint quality. American cars less heat works better, Japanese imports I must work hotter and exotics only except slow and cool.
 
Ah this old debate, although it really (IMO) shouldn't be much of a debate. I have consulted with several paint manufactures, chemists, people at Meguiar's, David G from Optimum (who used to work for PPG I believe) and the resounding answer is NO.....

Heat is not good for modern catalyzed paints (good being it offers a benefit). Modern paints are cross linked, you can not heat them up and re-flow them (per PPG and DuPont). Excessive heat can cause them to warp similar to plastic.

here is a recent post from a true professional I know on another forum I just lurk on

Heat is a vital part of getting the paint perfectly polished but it can also be its own own worst enemy.

Too much heat and the paint can 'twist'. Paint twisting occurs when the heat and friction created by the machine, pad, buffing liquid, and applied pressure combine to alter the bond between the paint, primer, or substrate it is attached to.

What does this mean?

Well, the result of paint twist resembles the sidewall of a drag slick leaving the line.
Click to expand...

I am not sure the professional who you are quoting, but this was almost originally posted by Kevin Brown, right up to the drag slick analogy. However Kevin has stated numerous times that heat is not good for paint, so it is weird to see a quote that he made being used to support the opposite view point.

Heat is the result of the friction between the paint, polish, pad... In general if you are getting more heat on the paint, then you are getting generating more friction on the paint's surface. This is why you will see posts stating you need heat to correct paint (incorrect). You need friction to correct paint, heat is the unwanted by-product. In fact if we go back to The Law of Conservation of Energy, we will find that heat is unused energy that is not being used for correction.

Does heat make the paint softer? Of course! Is their a benefit to softer paint? Not really. You are better of selecting a more aggressive method to handle the defects then trying to soften the paint up. Of course modern clear coats are not going to get noticeably softer anyways.

While we can discuss what paints require what levels of friction to correct, we should (for the sake of accuracy) never discuss heat, as it is at best, a very inaccurate measuring stick.
 
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