Have Click N Brags "Jumped the Shark"???????

Interesting opinions thru all 14 pages, where you have some who want more pics less verbiage then the exact opposite from others. As it pertains to me specifically I put up the posts not for ego as many claim that I do, but as a "Carguy" I like to see the best cars in the world looking their best and WHOEVER does this I will comment accordingly.



The banter has developed into a Have vs "Have not's" where there is a reverse discrimination towards anyone who is fortunate enough to procure a job on a high end vehicle then complete the job with quality and integrity, then a developing post on on how that vehicle went from being marred and dirty to a better than showroom condition.



For me it seems that the dues I paid working on "Momobiles" and entry level vehicles when most of many here were in grade school or not even born yet means nothing, and the vehicles in which I market myself in a specialized way to work on to pay my bills and provide for my family is something that is to be looked down upon because I work on "Easy vehicles" that do not require any effort at all. If you do a complete turnaround on a vehicle which is destroyed with vomit/food/mold/scratches from hell that is something to be proud of and it required skill and hardwork especially a daily driver or momobile.................but here is the kicker I can do all that as well but what I would charge for that job is beyond what almost anyone would pay as the tab might be 25%+ what the vehicle is worth.



As for the products and steps I have explained over and over why/what/who/where................and the people who revile me for this also know why but do not care as then it gets in the way of their agenda, if you look at past posts I categorized EVERYTHING I used and specifically when I was involved with GI I was a schill..................but then the owner put a write up in the exact way I did in the past and it's "Great job buddy" ..........come on now.



I give lot's of tips out of the lime light as I do not care to be known as a "Guru" and do not have a agenda to sell anything whether it be my advice or a product line and many here have benefitted from this(You know who you are) and I do that because I choose too out of generosity of my time and knowledge but at the end of the day does anyone really "Owe you" anything??



These comments will probably be clipped, but the truth is what it is and so it cannot be denied.
 
rexrock said:
I really don't fault anyone posting their work and not describing every step of the process or answering everyquestion they may get. Its called BRAG not tell. All they should be nice enough to do is say 'thank you'. Brag is 'look what I did' not 'here is how I did it.' Maybe have a 'Show and Tell' section for that.
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Isn't there a "how-to" section already. For me, I used to do it, but I am of the same mindset as "Bob", or at least I believe so. People need to do some good old experimenting and trial and error, like back in the old days when the forums didn't exist. I had a few guys over the years call me a liar with the products I used on certain cars, "that's impossible". So, I take my impossible products and keep it to my self. I still answer PM's, like Bob or Dave of most of the other "gods" of detailing. In fact many of them answer with the "quickness", although it may just be because I don't bother asking them a million questions. I enjoy the pics, and if I have a question, I PM them and they respond. Works for me.
 
bryansbestwax said:
Isn't there a "how-to" section already. For me, I used to do it, but I am of the same mindset as "Bob", or at least I believe so. People need to do some good old experimenting and trial and error, like back in the old days when the forums didn't exist. I had a few guys over the years call me a liar with the products I used on certain cars, "that's impossible". So, I take my impossible products and keep it to my self. I still answer PM's, like Bob or Dave of most of the other "gods" of detailing. In fact many of them answer with the "quickness", although it may just be because I don't bother asking them a million questions. I enjoy the pics, and if I have a question, I PM them and they respond. Works for me.
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While I don't really have issue with people not posting their process, I have found that if I leave an important detail out of a thread which piques interest, I'm often bombarded with PM's. Which can be annoying, especially with the limited inbox sizes we're given.
 
When I say post a process I don't need anyone to get into massive detail unless asked. For example, you don't need to say "I appled PO106FA via a blue LC pad on a Makita rotary, spread at 800 rpms, worked for 4 minutes and 14 seconds at between 12-1300 rpm then finished for 1 minute and 9 seconds at about 1000 rpm before wiping off with a microfiber made from the souls of young children"... Something as simple as, I used a combination of megs 105, megs 205, and menz 106fa on surfbuf, orange lc, and black lc pads... It just helps give me some reference on the process used. Most of us who do this professionally can see a list like that and get a very good idea of how the entire detail went...but without it, it's just pictures.



If you want to get super detailed, great. All I am saying is without at least a small list of the compounds used I get very little from just pictures.
 
Another point I have brought up as it pertains to me only is, how many people here have a competition near by who use exactly what you do against you?........ and will not play by the rules??.



It is nice to have everything layed out for you all the time but that is not how life really works, you will get as far as your smarts, work ethic and let's face it luck will take you.



Now I am not going to speak for Dave(dsms) but you have a guy who was doing things and learning quicker than most guys in business for much longer, at one time he was doing not near the level of vehicles he does regularly now and it did not happen thru chance......he earned it, by learning the craft then presenting himself in a proper manner.



I will say I do not consider myself a "God" of the industry, and sometimes it is flattering but I know that I put my pants on like everyone else and besides my wife would not allow this as she is a quality woman who has her feet planted on the ground as do I.



It comes down to this........work hard, mine the nuggets of knowledge needed and be a man of respect........the rest takes care of itself.
 
Auto Concierge said:
Another point I have brought up as it pertains to me only is, how many people here have a competition near by who use exactly what you do against you?........ and will not play by the rules??.



It is nice to have everything layed out for you all the time but that is not how life really works, you will get as far as your smarts, work ethic and let's face it luck will take you.



Now I am not going to speak for Dave(dsms) but you have a guy who was doing things and learning quicker than most guys in business for much longer, at one time he was doing not near the level of vehicles he does regularly now and it did not happen thru chance......he earned it, by learning the craft then presenting himself in a proper manner.



I will say I do not consider myself a "God" of the industry, and sometimes it is flattering but I know that I put my pants on like everyone else and besides my wife would not allow this as she is a quality woman who has her feet planted on the ground as do I.



It comes down to this........work hard, mine the nuggets of knowledge needed and be a man of respect........the rest takes care of itself.
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I can understand your concern Bob given your situation. I've been noticing more detailers popping up in my area lately but I'm only part time too and I'm not very concerned.



I will say that there simply is no replacement for experience though. There are simply some things you can't teach and they cannot be learned from simply reading another process, and that my friend is where you and other seasoned pro's will shine the most IMO.
 
You this a great thread, write up ( click and brags ) can really jump start a career. I'm living proof of this. I can understand where Bob is coming from, but for me I'm complete opposite. I could care less if people know my products or selection. Im confident that my experiance is what people pay for and not my choice of product selection. I was always taught this business is 90 % know how and the rest product. Then again if I had people local to me were reading these forums and watching my every move. I would be real carefull like Bob is. The best point of autopia is your not entitled to read every thread.
 
I completely understand where AutoConcierge is on this. I share next to nothing in the little posts I do feel comfortable posting about simply for the fact that we too have a target on our back. We have had it for years. Frankly its annoying as hell when you think that someone thinks the product makes the detailer or they truly do it because things like "CnB" make it look easy. We still fix all other messes, we still provide pinnacle quality, but I much prefer to keep it to myself, simply so I don't have yet another example of re-education on why we are what we are compared to the other stuff in the area.



..bear in mind this is coming from a reseller of major detailing brands(Megs OPT 1z etc). We are just lucky people know how to order and how we do things price-wise and advice-wise. If we used our write-ups as "staged" photos and what people used to call "shill" marketing like some vendors choose we would be dead in the water for sure.



On the topic of CnBs jumping the shark, I think people are just plain desensitized to exotic and specialty cars now. Autopia has evolved from being a massive educational center, to being part education, part free marketing and it shows(that isn't a negative thing). Its a sign of the times I think. I would stretch to say all the big players in the detailing game have their markets already and really only want to solidify it.
 
autoaesthetica said:
I completely understand where AutoConcierge is on this. I share next to nothing in the little posts I do feel comfortable posting about simply for the fact that we too have a target on our back. We have had it for years. Frankly its annoying as hell when you think that someone thinks the product makes the detailer or they truly do it because things like "CnB" make it look easy. We still fix all other messes, we still provide pinnacle quality, but I much prefer to keep it to myself, simply so I don't have yet another example of re-education on why we are what we are compared to the other stuff in the area.



..bear in mind this is coming from a reseller of major detailing brands(Megs OPT 1z etc). We are just lucky people know how to order and how we do things price-wise and advice-wise. If we used our write-ups as "staged" photos and what people used to call "shill" marketing like some vendors choose we would be dead in the water for sure.



On the topic of CnBs jumping the shark, I think people are just plain desensitized to exotic and specialty cars now. Autopia has evolved from being a massive educational center, to being part education, part free marketing and it shows(that isn't a negative thing). Its a sign of the times I think. I would stretch to say all the big players in the detailing game have their markets already and really only want to solidify it.
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Mine came from the "it's impossible to do that in that time frame." So I stopped putting up how long I work. Then it became a "that stuff doesn't work" comments. Granted not many, but hey I am not getting paid to post , so now I don't bother posting up materials. Half the time I mix, switch and meddle around and switch pads, materials and what not. Now I just play around, and others should as well.



As far as the "gods", Bob and others are cool and share info when asked. I used the term jokingly as bob has stated in previous posts about how people approach him like a movie star (which made him uncomfortable). Mr Lucci, Sauders, Daulton whomever, are all great and people and are often put on platforms that others make for them. Then they are accused of having egos, which is far from the true. I have a lot of respect for Bob, I respect the years off sweat labour he had to put into his work in order to get the gravy cars day in and day out.



Hell what do I know, I am just some Canadian dude monkeying around with polishes and stuff.
 
Amazing how many views, as well as long intellectual responses you can get in the Click N Brag section these days when you do something different! :biggrin1:



That's kinda my point. It's the same ole stuff, just a different car. Nobody is doing anything different and interesting IMHO and the lack of post count and views proves it. Autopia has the traffic so you can't blame it on that. I fell that there’s nothing more uninspiring to both the author and the forum when someone spends 2, 3 or a lot more hours taking the pictures, loading them to their computer, sorting though them, uploading them, editing them, writing the outline to the thread and linking them all just to get *maybe* 1000 views. If that’s not telling us something then I don’t know what is? Isn’t our time more valuable then this?



We all participate here for different reasons and in different ways. I’m really grateful for everything that our members do to further develop our site, our viewers, themselves and the industry too, but I really feel that we’ve stopped trying to be different. After all, aren’t we here for maximum exposure in some way, shape or form? Has it ever occurred to anyone that we aren’t really doing anything a whole lot different then what the next person is basically doing? I know I have and is one of the reasons (not the main one) why I haven’t taken the time to post any Click N Brags or comment in many C n B threads these days for that matter. I will fully support pretty much any marketing tactic you’d like to proceed with that may help excel you in your endeavors here. You can’t say that this is the case with any other forum. Whether you chose to differentiate yourself is up to you. Heck, this place is open to just about anything and if you have a question feel free to bounce it off me then.



Polite piece of advice: The next time you set out to start another photo project, consider doing something a bit different. Maybe even something totally off your mark. Maybe a video or an extensive tutorial or comparison of a product or process? Think about what you can do to really grab the attention of the audience. (more then just a catchy title, but that would certainly help) Something that could really help our community, create interaction and make them remember you a lot more then from your last C n B.. See if it helps. And remember, there’s more to life outside the C n B’s. And that’s why we have over 20 different/separate sub-forums to interact in. Food for thought and nothing more…..:boink:
 
As for threads getting less and less views these days I think its a mixture of many things. David Fermani brought up a good point about writeups being posted on multiple forums all on the same day... hence if a viewer sees it on X forum and comments, they dont need to view it on Y forum and comment there as well.



I find the "differentiation" part a slippery slope. I think a lot of threads are pumped up with fluff and when you get down to the meat and potatoes its really like any other detail or paint correction. Just because one thread has 175pictures and the other has 30 doesnt exactly make the lengthier thread better, furthermore what I hate is when a subpar detail on a high end car gets more positive feedback than great detail work on a lesser vehicle. I lost count of how many Ferraris got wash and wax jobs, no correction shots, no interior or engine work etc. and they got 30+ replies. How many comments do we need saying NOTHING about the work done to the car and instead things like "I would sell my kids to drive that thing..."



Its an empty statement and the thread got play simply because a Ferrari or Lamborghini was involved. Great isnt it? :frown1:



When I started detailing I used my writeups as a barameter, the more views and positive comments I got I figured the better detail work I was producing. Now everything is very wishy washy, why do great threads go unnoticed and other ones get a ton of play? Does it come down to BS'ing? Do more pictures of people cleaning wheels, dusting vents, polishing lug nuts and putting wax containers atop hoods hold more merit than detailed paint correction photos or great interior turnarounds?



I'll be perfectly honest, I have done may writeups with some of the above (except that wax tub thing) and I realized that it doesnt really show much. Today I structure my writeups totally differently and it seems they are getting less views which wasnt my intention at all. So what did I change exactly? I cut out all unnecessary info about the car aka wikipedia copy and paste of the engine specs and topgear lap time, how I got the client etc. I take less pics of less skillful parts of the detail such as washing, claying and wheel cleaning and I focused more on 50/50 shots and the difference between the start and end point of the detail. I only pick my best and IMO most interesting looking finished shots and post those opposed to 50 shots from basic angles. And as for titles I no longer will write anything like "Black paint resurrected from the dead" I simply write the car, maybe the color and a brief description. I think if anything there should be some uniformity when it comes to threads. Level the playing field and let the best detail work reap the reward of views and comments. Crazy thread titles certainly draw the crowds but often times they end in dissapointment.



STREAMLINING a writeup seems to be counterproductive and dragging one out seems to be a sure winner :crazy:



I know this because I have been on both sides of the writeup thing, I have a bunch of threads with 80+pics, some well over 100 and others I have only 15pictures.



Whats different is how long and more importantly how much time was taken out of detailing to photograph and document a detail. I find it funny that I sometimes do a short writeup of just befores and some afters and people say things like where are all the correction shots? ... well I dont always have time or the ability to take a ton of pictures and when I do it often goes overlooked and when I dont people are quick to say I'm hiding something. What many forget is that this is my business, the most important thing to me is the work I do for the customer, writeups comes second and to anyone who thinks a writeup is a MUST for your customer I am sorry but your mistaken. If a customer cant tell the difference from when you started to when you finished their car and they need to see it in 50+ pictures than you need to step your game up. Wirteups should be icing on the cake for an owner, a by the way I took some photos of the work for you check it out here type deal.



Bottom line: Writeups are an important part of my business and TRUTHFULLY its more important for me to impress a potential client rather than a forum member who already details his own car/maybe has a detail business.



Now we should do MORE with our writeups just to make them more entertaining for detailing forum guys? Taking pictures during a detail and the several hours it takes to do a proper writeup after a detail is time consuming enough, I do it because yes I like to share my work and also see other peoples work but wheres the reward for the person doing the writeup? Are forum guys going to book a detail with me? Highly unlikely. And for a customer who strolls through and reads a writeup are THEY going to be CRITICAL ENOUGH to say that so and so didnt post enough pictures or didnt document the work well enough? I dont think so. I think they will view a few of that persons writeups and determine if their work is good and then see if that detailer is near them (which by the way eliminates much of the competition on forums because people in NY arent looking for a guy in Seattle to handle their car) and then possibly contact us.
 
dsms said:
Taking pictures during a detail and the several hours it takes to do a proper writeup after a detail is time consuming enough, I do it because yes I like to share my work and also see other peoples work but wheres the reward for the person doing the writeup?
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You could always consider doing what I'm thinking of trying... for owners of special interest/exotic/etc. cars if they want a tedious write-up done, they can pay for it as a form of "enhanced documentation" of the vehicle's condition and the work performed to get it there. Otherwise unless I'm wanting to show something specific, I'll just take a handful of general shots and call it good.



I've got quite a few cars I took lots of pictures of during a detail, and ultimately decided they weren't worth posting because the "story line" just didn't make itself stand out. Maybe that's a mistake, who knows.
 
This is how I think a detailing thread should be done; a few well composed photos of the car showing the major faults that were rectified and some final ‘sun shots’. 100’s of shots of verious panel hold very little interest to the buying public, which I assume your trying to reach.

McLaren MP4-12C, I loved her as if she were mine! - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum



Not documenting the products used is a personal choice; however explaining the techniques used helps neophyte detailer’s, one of the points to a forum. Not disclosing product does little to ‘guard’ secrets, as the real secret is the experience, skill and talent that the professional has developed over time, which no list of products, however comprehensive can duplicate
 
dsms said:
... How many comments do we need saying NOTHING about the work done to the car and instead things like "I would sell my kids to drive that thing..."



Its an empty statement...
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I'm guilty of that, but not on threads about exotics (which basically hold zero interest for me).
 
TOGWT said:
This is how I think a detailing thread should be done; a few well composed photos of the car showing the major faults that were rectified and some final ‘sun shots’. 100’s of shots of verious panel hold very little interest to the buying public, which I assume your trying to reach.

McLaren MP4-12C, I loved her as if she were mine! - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum



Not documenting the products used is a personal choice; however explaining the techniques used helps neophyte detailer’s, one of the points to a forum. Not disclosing product does little to ‘guard’ secrets, as the real secret is the experience, skill and talent that the professional has developed over time, which no list of products, however comprehensive can duplicate
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Jon you of all people should not comment as you are not sharing your info for free..................fact. As for the buying public, do you mean I am marketing to other detailers?? because if that is your meaning it might be the most silly thing you have ever said to date as "Detailers" do not dial my number to book jobs clients do, and clients make choices based upon who can get the job done properly.



If looking at a minivan that needs a paint job instead of paint correction, and a interior that also needs to be replaced turns you on so be it, but I liken this to a statement that a guy prefers ugly women.......................just because...........really.There is a certain group here that will say "Fancy cars" hold no interest to them, well I say great whatever "Melts your butter" but do not denegrate myself or others because they marketed and get jobs specializing in the finest automobiles in the world as the risk that goes with this type of service can be high at times and this cannot be disputed.



Before I , Dave, Ritchie,Jimmy(All former GI guys I speak with daily.............imagine that)did the cars we put up on a regular basis we worked on whatever we could that paid the bills, of course in my case this was quite a longtime ago and for the final time I PAID MY DUES in full. How many of you were there when I pulled all nighters??, or did cars I should not have at a price point way below market value to develop my client base?? the answer is none of you....................and frankly nobody owes me anything but the flip side of that coin is I owe nobody anything either so where does this attitude of entitlement come from...................I have my theory on this but some of you would not like that conversation.



If you do good to great work and give your best effort it is to be commended, some will hardly see a $300,000.00 dollar plus car but that is a regional issue that is not your fault, but me living in California where the car culture is more developed and weather plays a part is also not my fault so stop the envy now and do your best for yourself and you can look in the mirror and know you are providing a needed service with honesty as that is the real goal to not be a "No account boob"
 
speaking from a newbie's point of view...

i (personally) enjoy CnB's of older vehicles or vehicles that yield a huge turn around. that's my personal preference.

you cant start bashing people because of personal preference. this forum caters to everyone, so i don't mind seeing $250K+ cars posted. i might not look at them, but they next person might.

i think that majority of people enjoy seeing before and after pictures that show the turnaround. i would think most people on here would never get a chance to work on a exotic car and that's why it doesn't appeal to them. each thread started is taking a chance of having people look and comment in their threads. i think this forum (specifically CnB) is mostly used to advertise.



ive gained alot of useful info from CnB from the people that post steps, processes and products. nothing better for a newb to see proof of what product does what and how.
 
i think one of the biggest mistakes is that some guys read the click and brags, see the steps and skip the whole hands on part of experience. Reading posts by people and doing the work are two very different things. I am somewhat offended when internet detailers take shot at the real hands on guys. Experience comes from actually doing the deeds and not just having a good read. This seems to be one of the few industries that the "anyone can do it" mentality is so prevalent. I have had my fair share of panic phone calls from new guys who rather than put cars under their belt, just floated the internet. Guys are often puzzled when I suggest working at another reputable place before trying it on their own. This gives them more car experience in a shorter period of time. And their are still a few reputable places that will hire a guy for the summer.



I did my time at a high volume dealership for a while, I wanted to see both sides of the business. I didn't have to do it, but it was definitely a good experience and I took a lot away from it. i think a lot of guys would like to skip the years of sweat labour and just detail sports cars day in and day out. As I have stated, I prefer to value the "old dogs" postings over the young guns. I just feel they deserve my respect in keeping the industry standards high an being a poster child for longevity, not just earning a quick buck. These guys are not just great detailers, but also some of the best business people in the industry. I would rather get tips on business from Bob, Ken, Paul ect, than what polish did you uses ect.
 
bryansbestwax said:
i think one of the biggest mistakes is that some guys read the click and brags, see the steps and skip the whole hands on part of experience. Reading posts by people and doing the work are two very different things. I am somewhat offended when internet detailers take shot at the real hands on guys.
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what about the hundreds of people on here that dont do this for a business? what about the people that have this as a hobby and want to learn from other people.
 
dubber said:
what about the hundreds of people on here that dont do this for a business? what about the people that have this as a hobby and want to learn from other people.
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those aren't the people that call. The comment was made about the "pros" that use *** time experience as "real" experience, instead of the hands on. The enthusiast never makes the comments to the other guys I am referring to. You loose out because some other "pro" needs to be a douche. All cars are different anyways, take what other say with a grain of salt, because you can be using the same materials and get totally different results. Does that mean we lied about what we used, nope. But like I said, stones have been thrown at some guys on the boards, and their willingness to help goes down considerably and rightly so.



As far as keeping things off the forums, I have been running charity detailing meets/instructional sessions for going on 4 years. I take the enthusiast guys like yourself, and give them some hands on experience. Some others do this as well, so we may be locked down on the net, but not locked up in the real world.
 
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