Finishing with a Rotary

[Driven Auto Detail]

I don't think it's just G37s or Nissans. I've seen similar things happen on black BMWs, black Hondas, black Audi's/VWs... and the fact that we see it on black doesn't mean it isn't happening on other colours, just that we don't see it in natural light. I am sure that it's still taking away from the finish at a microscopic level.

So what exactly is happening on these vehicles? What are the signs/symptoms you guys are seeing that makes polishing it such a difficult situation? I think there was a post recently by someone showing how whatever polish they were using on a new Nissan was throwing little bits of polish everywhere quite quickly (sticky paint I believe?). Same thing or something different?



Sorry, but I'm just trying to understand what the problem is in case I encounter the same thing down the road.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

I have been using 1Z High Gloss polish, in place of 106ff lately, and haven't noticed any holigrams...even after wipedowns. 1 car that I finished out with the 1Z I see every few weeks at a cruise in, and I have been watching to see if anything magically appears...nothing yet.

 

[Driven Auto Detail]

I've seen a few people (specifically, Accumlator *i think*) talk more and more about the 1Z polishes. What's your take on that line overall WW? Are they on the same level or better than Menz?

 

[imported_Picus]

So what exactly is happening on these vehicles? What are the signs/symptoms you guys are seeing that makes polishing it such a difficult situation? I think there was a post recently by someone showing how whatever polish they were using on a new Nissan was throwing little bits of polish everywhere quite quickly (sticky paint I believe?). Same thing or something different?



Sorry, but I'm just trying to understand what the problem is in case I encounter the same thing down the road.

I think that's different, but these two issues can commonly occur on the same car. The "spitting" thing is generally attributed to soft or "sticky" paint. SIP is the perfect test for this; on some paint it will just refuse to work. I've had this happen on Porsches too, though; so it isn't always "soft" paint that does it. Some people have speculated it's from silicone on the paint. It happens a lot of re-sprays too. In fact, I just did a Carrera S and on the front of the car SIP was fine, but on the rear (car was rear-ended last year) it was unusable.



On the filling thing, it generally seems to be on softer paints where SIP/106ff are using on pads that leave machine marks behind (as in, the orange or white pad leave very light halograms because the pads themselves are abrasive) and SIP/106ff/UF fill those marks in with oils, leaving what appears to be a halogram free finish.



A really good example of this is when you see folks "one step" polishing cars with 106ff on say, an orange LC pad. Unless the paint is like rocks (and even then...) the orange pad is going to leave marring, and 106ff will often fill that in for a short period of time. Maybe people on this board have been bitten in the *** by minor surprise holograms from SIP/white, 106ff/orange, etc... The trick is if you're going to use either of those combos you need to follow it up a pad that has no abrasive ability (or almost none) as the finishing step, as Todd mentioned earlier. So like, 8rd/blue or 106/blue or FPII/black, etc.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

I've seen a few people (specifically, Accumlator *i think*) talk more and more about the 1Z polishes. What's your take on that line overall WW? Are they on the same level or better than Menz?

I like them a lot. Admittedly, I am not at the level of TH0001, Rydawg, etc... to be able to give an "expert analysis". The bottles recommend a rotary speed range of 700-1000rpm....nice and slow. They have a nice work time, and I get good gloss out of the High Gloss polish. I typically use a rotary, but I recently bought a Flex just to play with some. These polishes also work nicely on the Flex. Honestly, I'll probably never buy 106ff again...I like the 1Z High Gloss.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

A really good example of this is when you see folks "one step" polishing cars with 106ff on say, an orange LC pad. Unless the paint is like rocks (and even then...) the orange pad is going to leave marring, and 106ff will often fill that in for a short period of time. Maybe people on this board have been bitten in the *** by minor surprise holograms from SIP/white, 106ff/orange, etc... The trick is if you're going to use either of those combos you need to follow it up a pad that has no abrasive ability (or almost none) as the finishing step, as Todd mentioned earlier. So like, 8rd/blue or 106/blue or FPII/black, etc.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't believe in 1 stepping with a rotary. If you are pressed for time, or constraints from the customer's budget, use the Flex.

 

[Driven Auto Detail]

Thanks for the explanation Picus. That's good information to know. I'll keep that those factors in mind in the future.



WW - I agree about the 1-step with a rotary. I'm sure the good rotary users out there can pull it off, but for most of us, a 1-step should probably be done with a ROB of some sort.

 

[Accumulator]

I've seen a few people (specifically, Accumlator *i think*) talk more and more about the 1Z polishes. What's your take on that line overall WW? Are they on the same level or better than Menz?

Noting that I don't finish out with the rotary but rather via Cyclo...



I got the 1Z High Gloss after watching the Menzerna 106FF delayed-onset holograms appear over the course of a few months (work done by somebody else, a *VERY* good pro and member here who's used Menzerna for ages; I sincerely doubt it was simply user error). With said holograms appearing *underneath* a perfectly healthy coat of 476S (huh?!? How is that even *possible* ) I was eager to find a finishing polish that wouldn't give me any such surprises.



The 1Z HG is a little oily, but doesn't seem to do any concealing, nothing a solvent-wipe won't uncover right away. It's my current finising/final polish of choice, but I generally don't work on soft paints and I hear it's too aggressive (initial bite) for some softies.



And yeah, it (like all 1Z polishes) has "easy fracturing" abrasives and should be used at relatively low speeds.



My gripe with 1Z, and that's overstating it, is that there's a bit of a jump between their Pasta Intensiv and the High Gloss. It's not a big deal but you can't be an idiot with the Pasta Intensiv and then expect the HG to clear up your ineptitude. But overall, these are my two new faves. They don't cover *all* the bases as I still need rocks-in-a-bottle and I can see the use for something extra-gentle like FPII, but yeah....the Pro/bodyshop-safe 1Z twins are very good stuff.

 

[Accumulator]

Oh, and it's reassuring to see so many pros discussing the difficulty in finishing out *truly* hologram-free via rotary. I've seen plenty of "hologram-free" finishes that truly justified my use of scare-quotes

 

[Driven Auto Detail]

Hey Accumulator, thanks for the low down on the 1Z's! Much appreciated.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

This is a great thread!

 

[imported_d00t]

This is a great thread!

Indeed it is. As accumulator stated, i'm glad I'm not the only one seeing the difficulty and finishing off perfectly with a rotary. Tons of great info in here, and I'm hoping it stays alive so we can all continue to learn

 

[Bert]

I see people going from compound to UF, and I can only shake my head.

When you say going from a compound to UF, do you mean a compound like 105 or 3M Extra Cut or even a lighter compound like SIP?



IF you do mean SIP, would be a good step in between SIP on PFW and UF on LC Black? 106 on LC white?

 

[imported_d00t]

When you say going from a compound to UF, do you mean a compound like 105 or 3M Extra Cut or even a lighter compound like SIP?



IF you do mean SIP, would be a good step in between SIP on PFW and UF on LC Black? 106 on LC white?

Yes. What I've learned is that if you are using a medium cut polish (SIP) on a wool pad, you NEED to have a middle step. You could is 106, or maybe the 1z HG polish in between.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

I wouldn't trust 106 to remove wool marks from any polish. For me, pretty much any time I use wool its at least a 3 step process if not 4. When using 106, I prefer the paint to be as defect free as possible. In other words, Im not using 106 to correct, only to enhance the gloss.



So if I used SIP with wool, then Id probably go over it with SIP again using whatever foam pad is necessary. Then hit it with 106 and blue, or whatever finishing system you'd like to use.



Thats just how I do it. Everyones skills are different along with the paint. I think the most important thing to realize is just how much certain polishes can fill.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

When you say going from a compound to UF, do you mean a compound like 105 or 3M Extra Cut or even a lighter compound like SIP?



IF you do mean SIP, would be a good step in between SIP on PFW and UF on LC Black? 106 on LC white?

I mean a compound like M105 or E-Cut or Strada, or M95, etc...



I would not go from a PFW to a finishing pad/polish however, to much room for unexpected (and unviewable) results. If I use SIP with a PFW pad, I will usually follow with SIP on a white or green foam pad before going to finishing.



IME, finishing is ususally more reliable going from foam to foam, if that makes sense.



The MOST aggressive pad I would use prior to finishing would be something like the green or white LC pads (or Meguiars yellow pad). Now, understandably, you cannot always do as many steps possible to get the best finish (client's budget, time constraits, etc).



One of the things that experience has taught me (over and over) is that you cannot cut corners, you can only polish them correctly. I know a lot of people think I charge too much (fair enough) because I get atleast 1000 for most paint corrections, but again, my experience has taught me that it takes time (and a lot of it) to get true results consistently.



So the problem arises, the client only wants to spend so much (say you charge 50/hr and the client wants to spend 300). This limits you to two steps (time wise). Do you hit hte paint hard with a compound and try to finish it down (running the risk of having a lot of garbage reappearing) or do you do two milder steps that will not remove all of the deeper defects (but will help protect against hologramming)?



I cannot answer that because I struggle with that situation daily, but keep in mind it takes time, patience, and experience, and MORE time to do the job correctly. There ar no short cuts.



I would probably do two mild steps and not take any chances. Sometimes we shoot outselves in the foot by trying to do too much. If perfection starts at 500 (or whatever) then for 300 you are going to get much less then perfection. Why should I risk my reputation because I am limited (by whatever factors) on the time I have.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

I wouldn't trust 106 to remove wool marks from any polish. For me, pretty much any time I use wool its at least a 3 step process if not 4. When using 106, I prefer the paint to be as defect free as possible. In other words, Im not using 106 to correct, only to enhance the gloss.



So if I used SIP with wool, then Id probably go over it with SIP again using whatever foam pad is necessary. Then hit it with 106 and blue, or whatever finishing system you'd like to use.



Thats just how I do it. Everyones skills are different along with the paint. I think the most important thing to realize is just how much certain polishes can fill.

Exactly what I would do.... SIP is very versitile (when it is not filling). Be very careful and do your wipedowns (I sound like my mom telling me to eat my greens when I was younger), but you can use it for compounding on a wool pad and for leveling the paint prior to finishign by altering the pad compensition.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Oh, and it's reassuring to see so many pros discussing the difficulty in finishing out *truly* hologram-free via rotary. I've seen plenty of "hologram-free" finishes that truly justified my use of scare-quotes

I remember about a year ago, everybody was buying the Menz line and even novices with rotaries where finishing "hologram free" like using a rotary is easy. The truth is that it is very difficult and filling possiblities (unknow at the time) of Menz made a lot of people think it is much easier then it really is.



Even a lot of the Meguiars pro's recommend finishing with a DA (Mike Phillips for example, who imo, is a God with a rotary).

 

[imported_Detailing Technology]

I remember about a year ago, everybody was buying the Menz line and even novices with rotaries where finishing "hologram free" like using a rotary is easy. The truth is that it is very difficult and filling possiblities (unknow at the time) of Menz made a lot of people think it is much easier then it really is.

Ditto..........

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Nothing is written in stones





I corrected this car with HTEC on a PFW at 1800rpm.



Went over it with UF and a blue pad at 1800 rpm



Here it is after 3 months