Carnauba "Mythbuster".

Can't help you with the shampoo...sorry.



And who said anything about spending $1,000?? Or Zymol??



Once more (since we're talking about Zymol) there is a huge difference between the ingredients of a typical Zymol product and some other wax manufacturers products. One major difference is that.......Zymol reveals their primary ingredients of their waxes. Since the author of this thread protests the attributes of high content waxes, I'll spare you the description of their main ingredient.......which btw even their entry level wax, and dare I say even their cleaner wax, contains more carnauba content than some "high quality" brands.



So, begging to differ, there are significant differences between brands, despite their use of a common main ingredient. My challenge remains.......instead of the sour grapes talk, put your money.......and your own lsp to the test.....and see if you're missing out.



Why not take the challenge??
 
ConglomrationAL said:
There's one guy on here I know has tried MANY of the top of the line carnaubas and that's DaveKG.



Someone should get him in on this and see what he says. He could really tell us what the difference is between the high-end and low-end carnaubas. I know you guys have seen his collection.
Click to expand...







agree 100%
 
First off, what the heck happened to the quick reply option when you view a thread?



I agree with Anthony and his analogy of some waxes to hair care products. It's all marketing. There really should be no reason why ANY wax costs as much as $7000. Ok so you get "unlimited refills", but if they filled one or two jars for you every year, for the rest of your life, they've still made a lot of money during your lifetime. No business is going to sell a product to you where they can possibly lose money, otherwise they wouldn't stay in business!



Luckily, as men, our shopping habits are not bad as women. Any of you that's ever been with a woman, at one point or another, have discovered that they shop differently than men. Why does a good pair of boxers costs me $12 for a 3 pack, but a woman pays $12 for barely any fabric on a thong underwear? Generally speaking, their products costs more. How many men do you know spend more than $5 for a fat bucket of hair gel? Now count how many women you know that own hair sprays that costs $20 or more? Whenever I see Zaino prices, I think $$$ until I see how much my wife pays for BARELY any product in these makeup kits she buys. The market for these products exist for women because they are willing to pay for it.



The same thing can be said for these waxes like Zymol, Victoria, Swissol, etc. Some guys are just willing to spend their hard earned money on it. Even if it's better than a $15 can of wax, is it hundreds or thousands of dollars better? Most likely not.



Have you ever noticed that most of these people who use these high end waxes are in the UK or Europe? I live in SoCal where we probably have the highest concentration of cars in the world, yet I don't know of one single place that sells a can or tub of wax that costs more than $50. The only place I know of that carries Zymol on retail shelves is Super Autobacs, and even then they only carry wax like Zymol Carbon, Japon, etc for $40 or $50 bucks.



IMO, this kind of market for high end wax is VERY SMALL here in the US, compared to elsewhere. I'm not trying to put down people like Paul Dalton or some of the other UK detailers here (they all do a very excellent job), but sometimes when I'm reading their Click & Brags, sometimes it gets a bit overdramatical. (Queue Paul to upload paint readings to his laptop to get a visual image in his head of the car's paint).



If you've ever read their Click&Brag, it's more like a story. And because they're able to put this drama into detailing, they're able to charge high end prices. Another good use of marketing. No wax is worth $7000, and no detail job should cost $5000 but hey, if someone wants to spend their money like that who's to stop them? Congrats to the people who can actually pull it off, because I don't see anyone here in the US being able to pull that off anytime soon. These people/companies can sell ice to eskimoes if they wanted to. That's how good they are at their job.
 
Wow...reading this entire thread in one sitting was interesting and LONG! lol I have a very simple response, use whatever makes you happy!

I can GUARANTEE EVERYONE on this board has bought something they dont need and spent a lot of money on. Who needs a 60 inch TV when you a 30 inch will suffice? Who needs a $45k BMW when you can buy a used Civic for $5k? Why buy a GPS system when you can get a printed map? So on and so on....



Preference along with NUMEROUS other reasons I wont get into. I personally have used sealants and waxes of all sorts. I happen to like Zymol Estate Glazes very much. I may not be able to afford to keep buying them but what is the bottom line....I LIKE USING IT! If it mind control of the Marketing God then so it be, its part of life that we buy things we dont need or have high perceptions of.



I just dont like people saying spending hundreds of dollars on wax is stupid and those people are stupid. People probably think Autopians are stupid for caring so much about their cars. Everyone has something they have bought that others would think is stupid. I mean I have detailed a few $200k-$300k cars, while almost all of us will never own one, should we call Ferrari owners stupid? They have the means, its their money, they are happy with them let it be. Same with us, I have money for wax, I buy what wax I want, Im happy. I dont think I have ever said people that use a certain product are fools for falling for a marketing hype.



ENDING NOTE - BUY WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY! JUST DONT JUDGE OR SAY OTHERS ARE FOOLISH WHEN THEY DO SO.



Also, I wrote this quickly after a long day.... grammar police please dont arrest me.



AND ANOTHER NOTE: Can we all just "E-Hug" each other right now! :) :) :) :) :) :)
 
lbls1 said:
Can't help you with the shampoo...sorry.



And who said anything about spending $1,000?? Or Zymol??



Once more (since we're talking about Zymol) there is a huge difference between the ingredients of a typical Zymol product and some other wax manufacturers products. One major difference is that.......Zymol reveals their primary ingredients of their waxes. Since the author of this thread protests the attributes of high content waxes, I'll spare you the description of their main ingredient.......which btw even their entry level wax, and dare I say even their cleaner wax, contains more carnauba content than some "high quality" brands.



So, begging to differ, there are significant differences between brands, despite their use of a common main ingredient. My challenge remains.......instead of the sour grapes talk, put your money.......and your own lsp to the test.....and see if you're missing out.



Why not take the challenge??
Click to expand...





wannafbody said:
BenVegas-what'e the max percentage of a wax (by weight or volume) that can be carnauba content?
Click to expand...





First to lbls1,



Why should I take the challenge? I have tried in the last 18 years or so of detailing 3 different high end Zymol waxes. All of them were nice waxes. But no different from other waxes and in no way justify the cost of anything over $30.00 (I'm including costs such as marketing, payroll, warehouse, etc. The actual cost of materials is only a few bucks at the most).



Now to answer both of the above posters.....I have spoken with David, a paint chemist, of Optimum Labs, Bud Abraham and also Ron Ketchum and all 3 have stated that around 30% carnauba is right around the max of carnauba content. Even less in cream waxes.



So if Zymol (or some other high end wax) can put in 30% carnauba max (either white, yellow, blue or pink) and charge $500.00 for a tub and Pinnacle puts in 30% carnauba also and charges $65.00 please inform us all just what justifies the extra $400.00 for the Zymol?? Do they have a secret or special ingredient that is not readily available to the rest of the chemists out there?



People pay $150.00 for a Nike shoe because it says or has the NIKE name and/or logo. A Converse shoe for $30.00 is just as good. Likewise the "prestige" and exclusivity of saying...."Well, my wax costs $500.00 and it must be applied only a certain way" drives people to buy and use that wax over a $25.00 tub of S100.



Now if looked at logically a car is a car is a car. There is no difference between a Yugo and a Porseche 911 when both are judged on the level of transportation. Both get you from point A to point B, correct (although you may be taking a risk with the Yugo)?



Now, take both of those cars and put them on the track. Suddenly you realize why one costs $80,000.00 and the other can be bought with a nice stamp collection. My point? Well different strokes for different folks.



Some people WANT to buy a wax and use a wax that costs hundreds of dollars and that's fine. It's their money. My argument is not against that but rather against the claim that there is a difference between said waxes that justifies $100.00 or more. If I was stupid I would buy one of those high dollar waxes and have it analyzed by a chemist and then compare its make up to a $30.00 tub of Trade Secret. I claim there would be no difference. I would compare them panel by panel. I would again claim no difference.



Anthony
 
01bluecls said:
ENDING NOTE - BUY WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY! JUST DONT JUDGE OR SAY OTHERS ARE FOOLISH WHEN THEY DO SO.
Click to expand...



Good post--I do think though that it's a given that people will buy what they want and will use what makes them happy. I couldn't really envision anyone doing otherwise. But that's different from someone just wondering or questioning if an expensive wax's price is justified and if it has certain characteristics that set it apart from lower-priced waxes.
 
The maximum carnauba content would be 55% in my opinion. And even then, I've personally found it to be incredibly difficult to work with. I still strongly feel that most carnaubas advertised with 50% or "more" in carnauba content are truly advertising a weight, not a volume. 30% by volume is about 50% by weight. That's why you never can truly assess the amount of carnauba in a manufactured wax unless the manufacturer specifically lists their percentage in weight or volume.



THE ULTIMATE MYTH (And write this one down): The % of carnauba content in wax, no matter how it is disclosed, only matters to the amount of wax you will actually use per application. It has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of the wax, nor the finish it will produce. More carnauba just means you get more bang for your buck per tin of wax. However, the pitfall for consumers is that since you apply less wax you have a chance to miss spots on the vehicle than if you were using more product per application.



Should high carnauba % wax cost more than low % carnauba wax? Oddly, no. Solvent costs more per pound than carnauba. Go figure.



One common thought from posters here seems to be that wax only costs a few dollars to make. This is another good myth to dispel. The raw ingredients may be in that price range, but you still also have a cost to manufacture and market the wax. Employees are not free, nor are Autopia banner ads. I dont state this to try and justify anyones pricing, but the rules of business are that of which it's more than the simple material costs that factor into a produts end-cost. Kinda like the plastic storage tubs you pay $19.95 on TV for that costs $0.75 to make. How much do national television ads and a call center to take orders cost?



Good replies from everyone, nothing we all like reading more than constructive thinking.
 
Just a side note. If you detail for a living, using an outrageously expensive wax is a quick path to less profits and possibly business failure. This holds true for most products used in detailing. The difference in appearance between an average priced wax and a high priced wax is marginal at best. In others words the difference is not noticeable to the customer and adds no value to the service. For the individual consumer, I can understand spending high dollar on a wax. As 01blueCLS stated, if it makes you fell good and you have the means, go for it.
 
Anthony,



You do not have to take the challenge. I put the opportunity out there to all critics of high end waxes, that say that they're not up to their claims and/or that all lsps and waxes are equal.



Secondly, while I respect the opinion of those people that you've spoken to, I do not know of them, nor have these people produced products on the market, or (as far as I've know from this post) have manufactured their own wax products or have conducted and published studies on carnauba and other waxes. I can't really buy into what is claimed by these people, other than the fact that its their opinion based on their experience.



Third, Zymol has produced their products for several years, and as of yet have not been banned from manufacturing their products. The company freely discloses the content of their wax products, and stand by their claims. All anyone (including those folks that you've quoted) would need to do would be to examine any of those products and perform an ingredients analysis to actually determine the validity of Zymols claims. If this can be done, then again, my challenge would be to disclose any misclaims (or validation) of Zymol's product performance and ingredient specifications.



So...my challenge remains. Put Zymol or any of the exotic waxes to the test, instead of bashing their products without trying them personally. Otherwise, discussions such as this topic are a waste of internet text space, when describing the actual performance of products without a use or comparison experience to support them.
 
I'll gladly test any high end Zymol waxes you want to send me samples of. ;)



Putting them to the test would be easier on someone else's $400 worth of wax.



Personally though, I can see a visual difference between Meguiars #16 and Pinnacle Souveran but I can't say the difference would be worth the increased cost to everyone.
 
lbls1- Bud Abraham is the head guy at Detail Plus. They sell some chemicals/equipment for car wash places, but mostly he seems to be a "business side" of the business kind of guy-marketing plans, seminars, etc.

David is from Optimum (according to Anthony-I don't know him either).

And Ron Ketcham is from AutoInt (Automotive International). They sell the ValueGuard line as well as private label for various car companies. Generally considered a fairly knowledgeable guy with many years of experience.
 
Thanks. It doesn't make me confident in their opinions, despite their occupation. If you've used zymol and have been dissatisfied with it, then that is an acceptable statement. Just say that its a statement based on your experience.



However, saying or suggesting that a product doesn't have a percentage of a carnauba ingredient or doesn't perform to its suggested ability without offering evidence, such as a chemical lab analysis, doesn't give a claim any validity other than the appearance that it is an opinion, despite being from a personal or professional experience.



I want a clear statement to be made, and moreover, back up the statement with concrete facts, or declare that its an opinion. Generalizing a statement as being true solely on one's experience or affiliations do(es) nothing to validate any product as being legitimate or fraudulent.
 
Yeah, but the question everyone's really wondering is how much carnauba is in Epiphany wax, with 23k gold leaf? (You had to be prowling around the Hot Tub early in the winter to get that reference)
 
Scottwax said:
Personally though, I can see a visual difference between Meguiars #16 and Pinnacle Souveran but I can't say the difference would be worth the increased cost to everyone.
Click to expand...



I think that's maybe the salient point here, can't we all just get along? I'm willing to believe that a $400 wax might be better (as well as willing to believe that it isn't), but it makes no difference because as of now, I've never bought a wax that goes for more than $30 a jar (and I think I got that on sale for $20), and although I possibly could see buying Souveran for $80, I just can't see it ever being worth it to me to buy anything that cost more than that.
 
I'll keep it simple and stick with my pro car beauty products Yellow paste wax! It works beautifully and its 20 bucks per tub! Deep shine every time! I refer to my theory as the KISS theory! "Keep it simple stupid" LOL! Works for me......



..........................................................C;)
 
Gumball said:
I'll keep it simple and stick with my pro car beauty products Yellow paste wax! It works beautifully and its 20 bucks per tub! Deep shine every time! I refer to my theory as the KISS theory! "Keep it simple stupid" LOL! Works for me......



..........................................................C;)
Click to expand...



Perfect............what works for you, works...........And :nana: to whoever doesnt like your philosophy.
 
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