Carnauba "Mythbuster".
- Thread starter benvegas
- Start date
blkZ28Conv said:
Food grade and wax grade has gloss? Do they add anything else to the wax coating in food grade or is it straight wax?
I also seem to recall a standard email Sal Zaino used to send out stating caranuba waxes are dull and lifeless without their (gloss enhancing) additives. Actually it goes like this:
imported_memnuts
New member
TigerMike said:
Never got that e-mail.
That is why I stated that your statement was partially true. Carnauaba has a natural gloss that must be augmented to give the luster we desire in our paint protectants. Yes, your vehicle will look rather lifeless without gloss enhancers added to the mix. Carnuaba is basically the "protectant" element in a carnuaba formulation not the "beauty" enhancer. These beauty enhancers are what differentiates a Zymol/Pinnacle from a Meg #16/#26.
Flish
New member
TigerMike said:
What should we expect him to say about his competitor....of course he's gonna put the worst spin possible on his competition. I seriously doubt there's alotta truth in what he's preaching as well. Most of these guys use more weasle words than a used car salesman.
Icurrently use both systems and find there's really not much difference between the two, however there's a lot of BS out there when it comes to the facts and this thread really drives that point home.
It's good to see this kind of thing get posted every now and then....
I hate to go against the grain, but I would suggest that a little research should go into topics such as this one. There is much more to carnauba extract than what this post is suggesting. Bleaching isn't entirely a correct term when referencing White Carnauba. The process is an old industry standard that has been practiced for many years, in which white carnauba is chemically extracted from the raw yellow compound. This post may provide some interesting reading. http://autopia.org/forum/car-detail...e-buying-1100-zymol-vintage-7.html#post803713
The only way to have a meaningful discussion about the attributes of carnauba products is to base the information on referenced facts. Having a conversation based solely on opinion will not really confirm or answer any questions or establish facts.
There are a few veteren carnauba users (myself included) that will also disagree with the duration of longevity of a carnauba finish as described in this post. I have had carnauba finishes that have lasted an entire year (with and without garaging). Again, that is also heresay, but even some wax tests referenced may be helpful in having a discussion about longevity of some products.
Although the topics raised seem interesting, I am left wanting more facts just reading this discussion without established references.
The only way to have a meaningful discussion about the attributes of carnauba products is to base the information on referenced facts. Having a conversation based solely on opinion will not really confirm or answer any questions or establish facts.
There are a few veteren carnauba users (myself included) that will also disagree with the duration of longevity of a carnauba finish as described in this post. I have had carnauba finishes that have lasted an entire year (with and without garaging). Again, that is also heresay, but even some wax tests referenced may be helpful in having a discussion about longevity of some products.
Although the topics raised seem interesting, I am left wanting more facts just reading this discussion without established references.
Flish
New member
benvegas said:
Thanks for the write up...it's spot on the money.
Pennypacker
New member
There's been some great replies and questions. Here's some answers:
1.) Since Carnauba is mostly grown in northeastern Brazil along the wet regions, most of it is imported to distributors by the same source. Because of that, for a 50Lb bag, your price is generally around $8. We all seem to have the same cost basis. If you buy a smaller quantity the price will go up and a larger quantity the price will go down, but a ballpark is $8/Lb for a 50Lb bag.
2.) Since all Carnauba #1 Yellow grade is the same, this doesnt have any relation to cheap or expensive coffee. Carnauba is carnauba. While there are different grades, all auto waxes that I know of are made from Carnauba #1.
3.) Bleaching. I should have clarified this a little more. Bleaching yellow carnauba to be white provides zero added benefits other than changing the color from yellow to white. The process of bleaching can be tumbling raw flakes with color reducing agents, or, as simple as using Clorox. The major point about "White #1" is that it's just yellow #1 with a color change, with no added benefits.
4.) Carnauba does produce a little shine and a little gloss. It's minimal enough where if you dont include some additives in the wax to aid in gloss, leveling, shine, color and depth, then your wax will not look so good. The reason being is we apply such a thin coat of it to the vehicles surface, in food manufacturing the density is much greater. The process of making a jelly bean shine is part of adding the carnauba and then tumbling it, which is essentially a jelly bean buffing machine. Quite neat, it was on Food TV last week. If Carnauba was so good and a wonder wax, then all you would need to do is add solvent and package it. Since this isnt the case, that's why we have so many types of wax that work in so many wonderful ways.
5.) The toilet reference was a bad attempt at humor. Still, carnauba does not stain a white vehicle yellow.
6.) 95(C) is the temperature in which I personally melt wax. 82-83(C) is the standard melting point, however when melting such a large quantity of wax in a large cooking vessel, 95(C) ensures that there arent bits and crumbs of the flakes that have not melted. You can cook carnauba at anywhere between 82-299(C), but over 95(C) you risk the additives flashing as most of the additives makers use will have a flash point of around 98(C).
7.) Zaino's reference to the state of carnauba is a pretty generalized statement, I dont agree with it. If Carnauba was so poor optically and hazy, we would use synthetic wax instead of carnauba wax.
8.) Facts or Opinions? What I state is fact with my opinions. What I say is not false, it is not marketing, it is nothing more than pure scientific fact. This is also my job. It's what I do professionally. As far as references go, pretty much everything I've said is available on the Internet already. It's just not in an easy to read format nor all in one place (until this post). To satisfy the critics, here's a partial list of references:
Ester - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Carnauba wax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Carnauba Wax
Essential Oils Supplier Guide and Directory
Chemical Manufacturing - Auto Appearance Chemicals - Formulations - Dow Corning
CHEMCENTRAL:Customer Tools
waxes
K-Solv Products
ExxonMobil Chemical
Hort 403 - Reading - Oils
Of course if anyone has any questions just post away. Have fun.
1.) Since Carnauba is mostly grown in northeastern Brazil along the wet regions, most of it is imported to distributors by the same source. Because of that, for a 50Lb bag, your price is generally around $8. We all seem to have the same cost basis. If you buy a smaller quantity the price will go up and a larger quantity the price will go down, but a ballpark is $8/Lb for a 50Lb bag.
2.) Since all Carnauba #1 Yellow grade is the same, this doesnt have any relation to cheap or expensive coffee. Carnauba is carnauba. While there are different grades, all auto waxes that I know of are made from Carnauba #1.
3.) Bleaching. I should have clarified this a little more. Bleaching yellow carnauba to be white provides zero added benefits other than changing the color from yellow to white. The process of bleaching can be tumbling raw flakes with color reducing agents, or, as simple as using Clorox. The major point about "White #1" is that it's just yellow #1 with a color change, with no added benefits.
4.) Carnauba does produce a little shine and a little gloss. It's minimal enough where if you dont include some additives in the wax to aid in gloss, leveling, shine, color and depth, then your wax will not look so good. The reason being is we apply such a thin coat of it to the vehicles surface, in food manufacturing the density is much greater. The process of making a jelly bean shine is part of adding the carnauba and then tumbling it, which is essentially a jelly bean buffing machine. Quite neat, it was on Food TV last week. If Carnauba was so good and a wonder wax, then all you would need to do is add solvent and package it. Since this isnt the case, that's why we have so many types of wax that work in so many wonderful ways.
5.) The toilet reference was a bad attempt at humor. Still, carnauba does not stain a white vehicle yellow.
6.) 95(C) is the temperature in which I personally melt wax. 82-83(C) is the standard melting point, however when melting such a large quantity of wax in a large cooking vessel, 95(C) ensures that there arent bits and crumbs of the flakes that have not melted. You can cook carnauba at anywhere between 82-299(C), but over 95(C) you risk the additives flashing as most of the additives makers use will have a flash point of around 98(C).
7.) Zaino's reference to the state of carnauba is a pretty generalized statement, I dont agree with it. If Carnauba was so poor optically and hazy, we would use synthetic wax instead of carnauba wax.
8.) Facts or Opinions? What I state is fact with my opinions. What I say is not false, it is not marketing, it is nothing more than pure scientific fact. This is also my job. It's what I do professionally. As far as references go, pretty much everything I've said is available on the Internet already. It's just not in an easy to read format nor all in one place (until this post). To satisfy the critics, here's a partial list of references:
Ester - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Carnauba wax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Carnauba Wax
Essential Oils Supplier Guide and Directory
Chemical Manufacturing - Auto Appearance Chemicals - Formulations - Dow Corning
CHEMCENTRAL:Customer Tools
waxes
K-Solv Products
ExxonMobil Chemical
Hort 403 - Reading - Oils
Of course if anyone has any questions just post away. Have fun.
imported_Dave11
New member
How long can carnauba can last in a city like Houston in the summer time......?
(90-100 degree days on a black car sitting in the sun all day long......)
(90-100 degree days on a black car sitting in the sun all day long......)
imported_Yal
New member
Dave1 said:
I think that depends on how the carnaubu is treated and made into a wax.
Good partial listing. I don't have a clear correlation to these sources and some of the claims that you made earlier, such as durability and gloss. Most of these sources lists some chemical formulations as well as standard definitions of the various types of natural and polymer formed waxes.
I am more interested in the process of manufacturing the white wax. I did not see a definition of this process in your sources as of yet. The process (provided in my dated source) describes several methods of producing white wax, one of them including saphonizing (right spelling...a form of soap making), other methods which included heating the compound to high temperatures, and a couple that described adding benzine, and paraffin to the wax to produce the white product. The process isn't really described as adding a color to produce a wax with a white texture, but more of a adding chemical ingredients to wax solutions at high temperatures to produce a white wax by-product.
There should be sources that should describe a wax's melting point; I want to see how the wax end product, that being car wax, is affected by a wax's chemical melting point, as well as the probability that the melting point could be reached in an end-user situation. This would give the discussion more credibility in relation to the actual longevity of a typical carnauba wax as compared with a synthetic appearance product.
I am more interested in the process of manufacturing the white wax. I did not see a definition of this process in your sources as of yet. The process (provided in my dated source) describes several methods of producing white wax, one of them including saphonizing (right spelling...a form of soap making), other methods which included heating the compound to high temperatures, and a couple that described adding benzine, and paraffin to the wax to produce the white product. The process isn't really described as adding a color to produce a wax with a white texture, but more of a adding chemical ingredients to wax solutions at high temperatures to produce a white wax by-product.
There should be sources that should describe a wax's melting point; I want to see how the wax end product, that being car wax, is affected by a wax's chemical melting point, as well as the probability that the melting point could be reached in an end-user situation. This would give the discussion more credibility in relation to the actual longevity of a typical carnauba wax as compared with a synthetic appearance product.
Pennypacker said:
That's it! Thanks! I had a feeling it wasn't from Autopia, but I didn't know where to start looking. This is an excellent read for anyone interested in this topic.
For those who haven't seen it before he starts off by describing how he was impressed with the look of Zymol Destiny, but figured there had to be a way to get that effect without spending $300-400 per jar. You can read the rest of the story for yourself.
lbls1 said:
Yea, it's tough to list all of my sources that have been learned over years of making a product. Some if it you just "know", the rest of it can be referenced.
ibls1 said:
Since this isnt something I actually do myself, I do not know the actual specifics and formula used. The process of bleaching or adding color removing agents is one I have read about before (No reference to list). The process of adding paraffin is adding a wax with subpar qualities in comparison to Carnauba, one I think is counter productive. (Let's add a cheap wax to make the good wax white, it'll cost us money to make a product that doesnt work as well, go figure).
ibls1 said:
Carnauba Wax lists the melting points of carnauba (as does the wikipedia article) -- both were linked as references earlier.
For longevity compared with a synthetic appearance product:
http://www.dowcorning.com/DataFiles/090007c880003462.pdf
...that pdf from Dow Corning does not go specifically into carnauba breakdown, but it might provide some other answers you might be looking for.
Have fun.
-Ben