winter tires help...suggestions

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Tuesday: Occasional rain and snow, mainly after noon. ... Chance of precipitation is 90%. New snow accumulation of less than a half inch possible.



Tuesday Night: Periods of rain and snow, becoming all snow after 8pm. Low around 27. North northwest wind between 13 and 21 mph, with gusts as high as 29 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of around 5 inches :woot:
 
all good choices. nokian and blizzak have huge reputations here in colorado as well. they've been the standard for quite a while. I've owned them. I've also run studs. seems only in the last handful of years with compound and sipe technology that others have become competitive.



well I hope this first little storm doesn't prove too anticlimactic for you, white95max. your investment is going to make winter driving somewhat of a non-event, but then that's the effect we're all going for, isn't it. calm is good when everyone else is all over the road.
 
I guess what I can't get my arms around is this: The winter tires talked about here fall into two general categories (to use the Tire Rack monikers), Performance Winter (Dunlop M3) and Studless Ice & Snow (Blizzak, Nokian Hakkas, Michelin X-Ice). Let's call them PW and SI&S. The SI&S are soft, usually only Q-rated, and wear quickly. The PW are speed-rated, and give away something in the ice to get good repsonsiveness in the dry.



My question is this. Here in NJ, even if you only put your winter tires on from Dec. 1 to say March 15, you'll only be driving on snow for 5-20% of that period. Given that dry handling and wet braking seem to be compromised on the SI&S (not to mention wear), is it really realistic to use a tire like that (rather than a PW) which due to it's sloppy handling could cause you to not be able to avoid an accident in the dry/wet more likely than it would save you in the snow/ice? I can see the equation being different further north or in mountain areas where the snow stays on the road for longer.



If it was for me, I'd just go one way or the other and see how I liked it, but I'm trying to make a recommendation for my friend, who doesn't have the driving skills to compensate for a tire that's not cooperating with her.
 
That's really why I went with the M3s. I wanted a tire that works well on dry pavement as well, and didn't wear quickly. The roads here are only snow-covered for, like you said, maybe ~10-20% of the time. It's bad enough having to run a 65-series tire, and I don't think I'd like it much to have a spongy sidewall on top of that.
 
Mike,



That's the exact problem for us in zone 5-6. Not much snow. Mainly ice to contend with.



I personally would go for the ICE tire over deep snow and yes they do wear a bit faster but for me, it's all about safety over outright dry performance in the winter. Just too many idiot drivers out there and I want the piece of mind of being as much in control as possible in icy conditions.
 
Paco...decisions, decisions, LOL! Normally, I would say that we don't have much ice or snow here. Much of the time when it snows, it's near freezing, and it frequently gets above freezing during the day, so the roads clear quickly (especially when salted). But last year was really bad for ice for some reason (freezing rain or rain during the day then turning cold at night) as well as real cold weather where it's too cold for salt to really work and it stays cold. On the other hand, they put down SO much salt around here in recent years. My friend like the name of the Hakka's...so maybe that's the one to go with ;)
 
all recent history and not to make it all more tedious, but I'd actually separate them into three categories: deep snow and ice, studless snow and ice, and performance winter - or in the tradition: dsi, ssi, pw.



blizzak and nokian would be my deep snow choices. I used these tires (w and w/o studs) in manual trans cars I owned in the eighties and nineties (like my prelude) when I went back country skiing every weekend and could drive in snow so deep it was coming up over the hood to the windshield. driving to the east portal of the moffat tunnel in winter is no place for the meek.



enter michelin with new sipe and rubber technology, and I tried arctic alpins on a 2.2cl with a five speed stick. excellent on ice and lots of snow but not too deep for three seasons max on those tires, and then they were done. lots of predictable flex that in my mind was easily worth it for the security of the tires. I could drive through anything, but accelerating past seventy+ mph on a dry entrance ramp I'd steer anticipating a delayed reaction.



enter dunlop m3 into the fray. I originally mounted them on my 2.2cl and passed everyone - and I mean everyone - in a blizzard driving from vail to boulder on I70, and I felt totally in control. very impressive. a season passes, the 2.2cl is totaled, and I find a 3.0cl auto to replace. I mount the m3's again, and performance is amazing but not quite so nirvana-like. I don't blame the tires. I blame the auto trans.



I'd classify the m3 as ssi with an edge, not just something called preformance winter.



pf seems more of a stigma, and imo the m3 is a better tire than that and doesn't deserve to be in the stigma class, where I would more likely place harder compounds with aggressive tread patterns or something like my yoko dbs, which I've read do decently in snow but in fact do not.
 
Thanks for that input marko, I did recognize the third category but consider that (DSI) to be studded, which I don't think are still legal here. So you consider the M3 ice performance to be comparable to the Blizzak and Nokian? And what do you consider "deep snow"? Around here, we don't drive when the snow is coming over the hood...
 
after i reserched a whole lot, I decided to buy the Toyo Observe Garit HT. I figured they would be the best compromise between snow/ice/wet/dry/looks/price. I wanted a winter tire that would be real good in snow and ice, but not terible on pavement. i havent got a chance to try them out though.
 
I have kind of a parallel thread to this one going here , and I have been studying the Norwegian Motor Magazine test . Based on the Tire Rack's tests, I kind of expected the Blizzak WS-50 to be the best on ice & snow, but give something away to the others in handling, when in fact, the studless tires were all fairly comparable in dry/wet handling, while the European tires were even better in the ice & snow. I read a comment somewhere that the WS-50 is showing it's age against these tires, so maybe the new Blizzak REVO 1 addresses that (with its carbide "bite particles" like the Green Diamond tires), but there really is no test data on the REVO because it's too new. BTW, the recent testing that Tire Rack did, comparing the REVO 1, WS-50, X-Ice, and Graspic, really came out with different results WS-50 vs. X-Ice, against the Motor mag tests of 2004 & 2005.
 
Setec, you seem to be getting a lot of positive comments from people that have the Dunlop M3s. Why don't you just buy them already??? ;)
 
Setec, At the risk of further complicating your decision there is another factor, which may or may not apply to your friend's car, that you should know about: When I went to buy my winter tires, from The Tire Rack, I had decided on the Blizzaks--a no-brainer I thought. But I was also buying summer tires and new wheels, so I called Luke at TTR, and he told me absolutely NOT to get the Blizzaks for my car.



As it turns out, my car (Mercedes S-500), like many cars today, is equipped w/ an Electronic Stability Program (ESP), which can bring the car to a stop when Blizzak tires start to spin on slick roads. The system apparently "thinks" the car is out of control. He said my car would "hate" Blizzaks, and recommended I get the less expensive, but more effective on my car, Micheline X-Ice--which I did. I have them mounted on my OEM 16" wheels and have not put them on my car yet, so cannot report on preformance.



This may not apply to your friend's car, but I'll bet a lot of people reading these threads will find it useful to know. This is something I have not seen mentioned in any of these posts to date.



Good luck and let us know what you, and she, decide.
 
My vote for Dunlop Wintersports. I have been using them on my Audi S4's for years and love them. :2thumbs:
 
ramp said:
As it turns out, my car (Mercedes S-500), like many cars today, is equipped w/ an Electronic Stability Program (ESP), which can bring the car to a stop when Blizzak tires start to spin on slick roads. The system apparently "thinks" the car is out of control. He said my car would "hate" Blizzaks, and recommended I get the less expensive, but more effective on my car, Micheline X-Ice--which I did. I have them mounted on my OEM 16" wheels and have not put them on my car yet, so cannot report on preformance.



This may not apply to your friend's car, but I'll bet a lot of people reading these threads will find it useful to know. This is something I have not seen mentioned in any of these posts to date.



Good luck and let us know what you, and she, decide.
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That makes no sense to me. Why would your car hate Blizzaks, and like the X-Ice. Simply because a car with ESP has little/no traction does not mean the car is trying to bring it to a stop. ESP, simply takes the input given by steering and throttle position to determine where you want to go, and applies the brakes individually to the wheels that need braking to help direct the car in the proper direction. Tires will most definitely not have much effect on the ESP.



Sure, if the tires are spinning, the ESP will kick in to apply the brakes to the wheels slipping so that the car can get traction and accelerate. But saying the system will hate one tire over another is absurd.
 
boxer said:
That makes no sense to me. Why would your car hate Blizzaks, and like the X-Ice. Simply because a car with ESP has little/no traction does not mean the car is trying to bring it to a stop. ESP, simply takes the input given by steering and throttle position to determine where you want to go, and applies the brakes individually to the wheels that need braking to help direct the car in the proper direction. Tires will most definitely not have much effect on the ESP.



Sure, if the tires are spinning, the ESP will kick in to apply the brakes to the wheels slipping so that the car can get traction and accelerate. But saying the system will hate one tire over another is absurd.
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Why don't you tell that to Luke at The Tire Rack. I can't imagine what would motivate a tire professional like him to lie to me about something like that--especially when it resulted in TTR getting a lot less $$$ from me by recommending the X-Ice. He actually said that my car "would hate Blizzaks." I have no reason to make that up. But as I said, why don't you tell Luke of your concern: Luke@tirerack.com
 
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