Why top a sealant?

M

MBurnickas

New member
If solvents remove any type pf protection you have, and waxes contain around 45% solvent, wouldn't that remove a substantial amount of any sealant if not all of it?
 
yep....



Just like applying more wax (and solvent) over wax removes the previous layer as well.



You 'can' top stuff, example a polymer sealant that has fully cured should be able to remain mostly intact when a wax is applied over it, but it would need to set for 24 hours or so for best results. But you are on the right track.
 
You should ask the manufacturer directly if layering is possible with a particular product. IMO most products don't really layer. Some are designed in such a manner that they can.
 
TH0001 said:
yep....



Just like applying more wax (and solvent) over wax removes the previous layer as well.



You 'can' top stuff, example a polymer sealant that has fully cured should be able to remain mostly intact when a wax is applied over it, but it would need to set for 24 hours or so for best results. But you are on the right track.
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Hmm... I just "topped" my UPP with meg's #16 last night, although that was ~ 2 weeks ago that I applied the UPP. Should be ok, right?
 
Inzane said:
Should be ok, right?
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I'm sorry to be the one to do this, but no. In 24-72 hours your paint will begin to flake in certain and random places throughout the paintwork. In 96 hours, this will have spread to the extent that it permeates the paintwork of the entire vehicle. During week two, stage four of the condition, your paintwork will fail. By week three, stage five, your paintwork will be gone. Again, sorry to be the one to inform you.





































Seriously, people ought to lighten up about detailing. :laugh:
 
From your title : why top a sealant







Add depth, gloss, wetness, and added overall look





After a sealant has cured, most waxes will not harm or degrade the sealant.
 
Slickery said:
If solvents remove any type pf protection you have,..wouldn't that remove a substantial amount of any sealant if not all of it?
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The solvent action of most LSPs is vastly overestimated IME. You can use a *lot* of LSPs over (fragile) glazes with no problem, it they won't compromise a *glaze* they sure won't comromise a (cured) LSP.



I've sure never used a wax that will comromise a sealant.



Decently controlled testing I performed showed that layering often works very well, vastly improving the durability of many LSPs. Not all (at least not without spit-shining), but many. A few coats/layers of Collinite sure last a *LOT* longer than just one, and with KSG the difference in durability between 2 and 6 applications is simply astounding.



(TH0001- Heh heh, this is one of the few topics where our opinions/experiences differ. Hope I don't come across as all :argue I recognize that there are a lot of variables that can explain all sorts of differences. Between our two viewpoints, people who ask about this stuff get both sides and they can then go see how things work out in *their* situation by trying stuff for themselves.)
 
This thread has me questioning my strategy. I've always used the Klasse twins x2 on the SG with x2 coats of 845. By putting the the 845 on top of the SG am I potentially wasting time and effort?
 
askjeffro said:
This thread has me questioning my strategy. I've always used the Klasse twins x2 on the SG with x2 coats of 845. By putting the the 845 on top of the SG am I potentially wasting time and effort?
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No, not really. The 845 won't strip KSG. Stripping KSG takes a *LOT* more than that.



But once you already have a few coats of KSG on there, I'd simply add more instead of applying a wax (which will preclude additional KSG layers).



Six layers of KSG lasted longer for me than any amount of Collinite I've ever tried. Actually, six layers of KSG lasted as long as anybody here is gonna go without redoing things anyhow. It really did act like (in the words of Mike Phillips), a "semi-permanent coating".
 
I generally apply 1 coat of sealant every 4 months or so. No wax or anything else and my truck always beads water after the 4 months.
 
Accumulator said:
No, not really. The 845 won't strip KSG. Stripping KSG takes a *LOT* more than that.



But once you already have a few coats of KSG on there, I'd simply add more instead of applying a wax (which will preclude additional KSG layers).



Six layers of KSG lasted longer for me than any amount of Collinite I've ever tried. Actually, six layers of KSG lasted as long as anybody here is gonna go without redoing things anyhow. It really did act like (in the words of Mike Phillips), a "semi-permanent coating".
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Thanks for the input, I'll consider giving a pure SG play in the future. May still top off with a coat of Megs 26 though, I like the look a little better then just the twins. Thanks again.
 
Accumulator said:
No, not really. The 845 won't strip KSG. Stripping KSG takes a *LOT* more than that.



But once you already have a few coats of KSG on there, I'd simply add more instead of applying a wax (which will preclude additional KSG layers).



Six layers of KSG lasted longer for me than any amount of Collinite I've ever tried. Actually, six layers of KSG lasted as long as anybody here is gonna go without redoing things anyhow. It really did act like (in the words of Mike Phillips), a "semi-permanent coating".
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When you put the six coats on, did you just put a new coat on after each weekly (or however often you wash) wash, or you put on a coat, wait 12 hours, put on another coat, wait 12 hours, etc.?
 
bert31- I did it over the course of about eight days, one coat per day except when I was busy with other stuff. I'd put a coat on one day, then buff it off and apply another coat the next day, the day after that I'd buff that coat off and reapply, etc. etc. I like letting the KSG set up overnight, except for the black plastic trim, which I W-O-W-O every time (and which, perhaps coinicentally, always needs redone first by a pretty wide margin).



Note that I'm spoiled- I always have two dog-haulers so one can sit in the shop, and said shop is clean enough that I can start/stop work as needed without having to mess around with much additional cleanup.



For me, six coats is just perfect. It's protected well enough that if I don't want to bother with it I can just give it washes for many, many months. Something usually requires body/paint work before the KSG is dead, and then I redo it while/after the paint is curing...now if people would just quit dinging up (or worse!) my poor minivan for a year or two we could find out just how long six coats of KSG *really* lasts :D
 
Accumulator said:
(TH0001- Heh heh, this is one of the few topics where our opinions/experiences differ. Hope I don't come across as all :argue I recognize that there are a lot of variables that can explain all sorts of differences. Between our two viewpoints, people who ask about this stuff get both sides and they can then go see how things work out in *their* situation by trying stuff for themselves.)
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How dare you not agree with me, I am the all mighty... :spot



Actually I believe you have more experience then I do when it comes to this subject so your input is valuable to me.



However I think it is important for certain scientific aspects to be considered.



The most powerful "bond" will always be the first layer, the foundation. The durability of the first coat is going to set up the length of protection for the rest of the system. Example, I have used NXT (1) topped with M26. Nice look, but it lasted less then M26 by itself.



The film build (thickness) of the protective coating (LSP) is so thin that it cannot even be measured in in microns. When you apply a thin coat of product on top of the this microscopic LSP, you are essentially bombarding the micro thin layer with a huge (in context) amount of solvent. Enough to remix at least some of the previous layer.



This applies more to carnauba waxes. If the sovlents used in carnauba are so strong that they take concrete hard flakes and melt them into a liquid, imagine what those same solvents do when they contact the existing, micro thin and weakened, layer. Waxes do not crosslink but rather anchor and the attraction they have to paint is far less then the bond that a crosslinking polymer has.



Do I believe in layering? To a point. A the microscopic level layering ensures more even coverage which should increase the look and durabilty of the product. Will waxes anchor on top of sealants?



Taking this a step further, wax applied to bare paint should last longer then wax applied to sealant because it should anchor to the bare paint better. If a wax lasts 1 month on a bare, perfectly prepped paint, then it might only last 3 weeks over a sealant. There is a trade off. If the sealant allowed the wax to anchor completely, then I would question what benefit the sealant has anyways.



Contraversly, the more even the coverage of the sealant, the harder the time the wax should have bonding. Ever apply carnauba over Zaino? It just doesn't work IME.



On the flip side, applying wax over sealant might also reduce the durabilty of the sealant at some level as the solevents are going to 'attack' the existing sealant layer. It may slightly weaken the very top of the sealant, but then again, the wax provides a sacrfical barrier that helps protect the same top layer it removed, so is it adding more protection then it removes or vise a versa.



We can make this as complicated as we want but in the end the best idea is to try it for yourself and find the results you are happy with, then stick to those results and ignore everything I just typed ;)
 
TH0001- I'm really glad I didn't come across the wrong way, it'd be goofy for you and me to be at loggerheads over this stuff.



Heh heh, there aren't too many topics where my experience will rival yours, no matter how many years I've been doing this stuff ;) Though "How dare you not agree with me, I am the all mighty...:spot " could sorta sound like *me* discussing this topic and my wash technique :chuckle: :o



Yeah, waxes over sealants pose a host of potential problems IME too, waxing over UPP never worked out for me and UPP over even trace amounts of wax (e.g., 1Z MPwW) just makes a mess IME.



When it comes to more conventional layering (wax-on-wax), and the idea of the base layer being the weakest link, I find my (VERY limited) understanding of the subjects to be at odds with my first-hand observations :nixweiss I can only assume that my understanding is flawed.



Why does 476S over 845 last as long as 476S by itself? Why don't high-solvent LSPs affect previously applied products that I'd expect them to compromise? Why *does* layering work in the cases where it "shouldn't"? And why in the world does an abrasive cleaning product like Autoglym SRP layer (under certain cirumstances) when it absolutely should *NOT*?!? I simply dunno...so I just go by what I observe. I *am* glad that I fooled around with this stuff long enough to figure out what does/doesn't work for me...these days I doubt I'd put the time/effort into it and I'd be missing out on something that works for me.
 
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