Why top a sealant?

Accumulator said:
now if people would just quit dinging up (or worse!) my poor minivan for a year or two we could find out just how long six coats of KSG *really* lasts :D
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? Are you stripping the six coats for KSG off to repair the door ding? Is fixing door dings complicated?
 
bert31 said:
? Are you stripping the six coats for KSG off to repair the door ding? Is fixing door dings complicated?
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This is more than a ding- some of it is on me :o some if it was caused by others :( But it really does seem like *something* happens to that vehicle every year. At least this work isn't as severe as the last time, when the elderly lady creamed it with her Cadillac!



Short version: there'll be paintwork involved so a) I'm letting it go until spring, b) the shop will strip the KSG prior to starting their work, and c) there's never a problem removing the KSG via PrepSol/etc. I expect the six layers of KSG will still be beading/slick/etc. come spring and after the fresh paint cures I'll redo the whole process again (assuming the unrepainted parts actually *need* redone).



But regarding *true* dings- I've had PDR done on heavily KSGed panels (without stripping the KSG) and it worked fine.
 
TH0001 said:
How dare you not agree with me, I am the all mighty... :spot



Actually I believe you have more experience then I do when it comes to this subject so your input is valuable to me.



However I think it is important for certain scientific aspects to be considered.



The most powerful "bond" will always be the first layer, the foundation. The durability of the first coat is going to set up the length of protection for the rest of the system. Example, I have used NXT (1) topped with M26. Nice look, but it lasted less then M26 by itself.



The film build (thickness) of the protective coating (LSP) is so thin that it cannot even be measured in in microns. When you apply a thin coat of product on top of the this microscopic LSP, you are essentially bombarding the micro thin layer with a huge (in context) amount of solvent. Enough to remix at least some of the previous layer.



This applies more to carnauba waxes. If the sovlents used in carnauba are so strong that they take concrete hard flakes and melt them into a liquid, imagine what those same solvents do when they contact the existing, micro thin and weakened, layer. Waxes do not crosslink but rather anchor and the attraction they have to paint is far less then the bond that a crosslinking polymer has.



Do I believe in layering? To a point. A the microscopic level layering ensures more even coverage which should increase the look and durabilty of the product. Will waxes anchor on top of sealants?



Taking this a step further, wax applied to bare paint should last longer then wax applied to sealant because it should anchor to the bare paint better. If a wax lasts 1 month on a bare, perfectly prepped paint, then it might only last 3 weeks over a sealant. There is a trade off. If the sealant allowed the wax to anchor completely, then I would question what benefit the sealant has anyways.



Contraversly, the more even the coverage of the sealant, the harder the time the wax should have bonding. Ever apply carnauba over Zaino? It just doesn't work IME.



On the flip side, applying wax over sealant might also reduce the durabilty of the sealant at some level as the solevents are going to 'attack' the existing sealant layer. It may slightly weaken the very top of the sealant, but then again, the wax provides a sacrfical barrier that helps protect the same top layer it removed, so is it adding more protection then it removes or vise a versa.



We can make this as complicated as we want but in the end the best idea is to try it for yourself and find the results you are happy with, then stick to those results and ignore everything I just typed ;)
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I have to agree with Todd on this issue. I think the oils in a wax topper will compromise the sealant under it, even a sealant as strong as Klasse or Zaino.
 
ABQDetailer said:
So does Opti-Seal get stripped with a wax application like 476S or CMW?



What about FK1000P?
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Great discussion guys. I'm taking notes from all parties.



So does anybody have any issues with the quoted products/combos? I've heard good things about this stuff and have high expectations from the combos.



I haven't topped any coats of Opti-Seal (been more than happy with just the sealant) but I was looking forward to trying OOS+CMW and OOS+476S. It's getting close to snow season so 476S might be the choice. But is this a waste of time?



Also was going to buy some of the uber-hyped FK sealant and I'm curious about it's layering properties.



What about AW and OCW on sealants? Is this bad as well? I just bought a bottle of AW and have a sample of OCW coming...I'd hate to be degrading my sealants with frequent spray waxing! :angry
 
Accumulator- 845 and 476 are both made by Collinite. There is probably a chemical similarity. 845 over M26 might not work as well.
 
z06meister said:
I have to agree with Todd on this issue. I think the oils in a wax topper will compromise the sealant under it, even a sealant as strong as Klasse or Zaino.
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Could very well depend on the wax and the sealant, the application methods, all sorts of things. I topped multiple layers of KSG with #16 when the MPV was new. After the #16 was "dead" I clayed gently with Sonus green and then just lived with the remaining KSG for a few months. I dunno if it was as nice as it woulda been untopped, but it wasn't really compromised that I could discern...still had that "KSG feel". But that was a lotta layers of KSG too...



Heh heh, I'm sure not arguing for topping sealants, as I simply never do it any more.

wannafbody said:
Accumulator- 845 and 476 are both made by Collinite. There is probably a chemical similarity. 845 over M26 might not work as well.
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Yeah, Collinite always does seem to be a special case in just *so* many respects :think:



This discussion had me thinking of you...as with TH0001 it's one of the rare instances where you and I don't always see eye-to-eye and I'm really glad that you and I can always just agree to disagree when necessary.



Heh heh, I *am* impressed that you have respect for Collinite, I always think of you as primarily a sealant type of guy.
 
:clap:



This has been an informative thread, and I'd like to applaud all the contributors. I am particularly impressed by the restraint of the contributors. Clearly folks have strong opinions about the question being discussed, yet everyone has refrained from making claims that go beyond the hard empirical evidence.



As I have perused various detailing forums over the past several months, I have noticed that some individuals like to pontificate on specific subjects (layering being one of them), as if they really knew, really knew, what they were talking about. Yet as far as I can tell, these folks do not have advanced degrees in chemistry nor are they able to support their claims with experimental data.



As we all know, it's so easy to become an authority in anything on the internet. All one needs to do is to master the jargon and assume a posture of omniscience. So I am impressed by this thread. Everyone in this thread has refrained from making claims that go beyond the evidence; they have simply stated what seems to be the case, based on their own experience with sealants and carnauba waxes.



Anecdotal evidence is one of the weakest forms of evidence, but it is evidence--particularly when presented by individuals experienced in their craft.



My compliments.



Cheers,

Al
 
Have to go with Todd on this one. Unless it is an Acrylic sealant I have not seen many that can be layered effectively enough to make more than a negligible difference.



That goes for carnauba's, polymer sealants, blends and funky juju that you don't want to know what it is made from.
 
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