using the rotary buffer outside--total swirl removal ?

Anthony,

when you say you're experimenting with some stuff to get a swirl free finish with a rotary, do you mean products, or more like technique ?

Cheers:)
 
So far with roughly a year experience with the PC, I have been able to remove all but the deepest scratches from the paint of whatever car I've worked on. How am I sure they are gone and not covered? On a few cars, after buffing with Megs #83, I've done the dreaded dish soap wash to make sure I got all the residue and buffing gunk off of the car. Once the car was dried with a M/F, there were absolutely no traces of the pre-buffing swirls.

If dish soap can strip even some of the strongest waxes/sealants from a car's finish, a nonprotective polish shouldn't stand a chance, and all oils/fillers should be gone.
 
Anthony Orosco said:
Bud is a good guy.....he is a character for sure but also a good guy whom I have alot of respect for. He and I disagree on many things, one area are swirls, not so much on how they are introduced but rather what can remove them. Rotaries and swirls and like fighting fire with fire. To remove swirls properly and effectively you need to use the same machine (the rotary) that put them in there but use a better technique.

I am experimenting with some stuff and I am trying to get a swirl free finish with a rotary. If I succed I'll share it with you all.

Anthony
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Not causing swirls with a rotory is 100% technique. I did a maroon vehicle yesterday with #84 and a wool pad and swirling even with that harsh of a combination was very minimal. I followed up with #83 and Meg's polishing pad and there weren't any swirls at all. I finished polishing with #82/Edge blue on a PC and the finish was flawless.

Using the rotory takes time and patience. You will not get a swirl free finish your first time, you might even burn through the paint. I've been detailing for 10 years and have done a couple thousand details. I started out using a rotory. It's only in the past year or so that I've perfected my technique to where I don't swirl or cause very little swirls with a rotory. I believe anybody capable with a PC can learn to use a rotory given they stick to it enough. The first vehicle I ever used a rotory on was a red Monte Carlo.....I wish I had a pic of it to show the MASSIVE amount of holigrams in it. Don't give up if you screw up, learn from your mistakes.
 
shotime,

good post that is yours. Would you mind sharing what is the technique you use with the rotary, to avoid swirling, as that would be ever so convenient ? Also, after you buffed the car, did you wipe it down with a MF 50/50 alcohol/water mix, and then look at the finish under bright sunlight ? As if i didn't wipe the finish after either 83 or 82, the finish would indeed appear flawless.

I find this kind of discussion very tricky, as some with experience claim one cannot get a swirl free finish using the rotary alone, and then others claim they can......now who is telling the truth.

I'm sure you get my point, and I'm honestly confused right now :(
 
I will have access to some maroon fenders to start practicing my rotary with. He he, while others go out and practice their golf swing, I'll be out practing the rotary :D
 
I truly hope to start a debate out of this conversation about the buffer not being able to totally remove swirling. I really wonder what is the technique behind it, I mean if one starts with the less abrasive combination of pads/compounds, works on a very clean surface, use high quality micro fibers, doesn't dry buff, run the rotary in a cross hatch manner, keeping the pad as flat as can be etc...

I know that there are stuffs that only come through experience, however buffing is not *that* complicated I'm sure, as I've done for two years now. It can be tricky as different paint, react differently, but I'd really like as much experienced rotary users to chime in on this :

can the rotary really take *all* swirls out ? Yes I'm insisting on this aspect, and I'm sure there are others who wonder about the same. If anyone exprienced user can come up and outline the way to get rid of *all* swirls with the rotary, that would really be nice, and I mean it :)
 
Probably unrealistically, but to purely and truly answer that question definitely, the only way I can think of is we would have identify the most talented rotary users in the world and have them work on swirls in every conceivable paint finish known. Short of that, there will just have to be much debate and maybe a general consensus afterwards.

As for me, I just have wait to get those fenders to start practicing on :o
 
Bill,

I agree to the fact that it's a question hard to be answered, still from the users on this forum, as I know some are quite talented, we can still get a pretty good idea I'm sure. Anthony, If I recall correctly has used the rotary for 14 years, and my impression is that someone with that much experience must have tried pretty much all techniques out there. The thing is If the rotary can produce swirl free finish, I'd like to know how to :). Then If it is impossible then, I'll know and thus use the PC as a final step. But demanding as I am, If there's some technique to achieve a swirl free paint with the rotary, I got to master it lol.

This is the way I am, I'll never resort to something less complicated even though it can produce the same result....I may be a bit nutty :lmfao
 
chip douglas said:
shotime,

good post that is yours. Would you mind sharing what is the technique you use with the rotary, to avoid swirling, as that would be ever so convenient ? Also, after you buffed the car, did you wipe it down with a MF 50/50 alcohol/water mix, and then look at the finish under bright sunlight ? As if i didn't wipe the finish after either 83 or 82, the finish would indeed appear flawless.

I find this kind of discussion very tricky, as some with experience claim one cannot get a swirl free finish using the rotary alone, and then others claim they can......now who is telling the truth.

I'm sure you get my point, and I'm honestly confused right now :(
Click to expand...

It's hard to explain because it's more of a feel you develop, but I'll try.

You can get very close to a swirl free finish with a rotory. Unless you can see 100% of the car in direct sunlight, it's hard to tell if there is any. When I work in my driveway, the back end of the car sticks out in the sun, I can see if there's any there, I can't on the hood. Even if you could get one vehicle perfect, the chances of going 100% swirl free on 100% of everything you do is very slim. I feel that following up with a PC is the only way to make sure you've got every swirl possible out of the car.

The biggest part is keeping the pad 100% flat. This may not be possible for some parts of the car and it's ok to use the edge for those.

Always move in a different direction. I start opposite the airflow, then alternate diagonals, then finish with airflow. On a door it would look like this- | \ / -- Each time I change direction I lighten up on the pressure. On the very last pass (final pass of the last product you're using with the rotory) before I move on to a PC, I actually pick up on the buffer a bit to take weight off the pad.

RPM's- I usually go between 1200-1800. I see no need to go above 2000. Experiment with it, see what works best for you.

Clean pads- Always start with a clean pad. Any abrasive bit in a rotory pad will trash a paint job. This is much more important with wool pads because they can hide things. If I use a wool pad, I use it on 4 vehicles and then toss it. It's much more important to have a clean pad with a rotory because of the weight applied to and speed of the pad. I've also never used alcohol inbetween steps, although I do wipe excess off with a microfiber.

Don't be affraid- I treat a paint job on a Ferarri just I would on a Metro. You can't let fear intimidate you. Look at it as polishing paint, not a $250k car.

If you're really serious about learning on a rotory, get a white Edge finishing pad and a light polish (SSR1, #82) and try it out. You're using both a light abrasive polish and pad so burning is at a minimum. Junk yards or a friend with a POS car are good places to cut your teeth on.

This weekend I'm doing some paint work and wet sanding an entire car. I'll do a write up on it and make sure I beg/borrow/steal a digital camera to get some pics. I'll get some pics trying to show what I just explained.
 
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Thanks heaps Shotime, that is much appreciated.

Incidentally, I've already started using the rotary since last summer. I do great results from it, but as I said if i don't wipe off a given area I just went over with the buffer, I look at it in the full sun, and it looks *perfectly swirl free*. But If I use either quick detailer, or a 50/50 water/alcohol mixture, then it's a different story :). All that is left are hairline swirls, but they're there all the same...and want them out.

The procedure you outlines is exactly the one I've used. I clean the pad after each panel, and inspect it very very often for any dirt particles. I spin the buffer at 1400 rpm, and at times 1100. I move it slowly on the paint if using a swirl remover, and faster if using a light cut, or medium cut--common sense here.


There's one thing I'm not clear about though : when you say never move in the same direction, do you mean the first stroke is say up and down and then the second right to left, the third is then diagonal ? Or rather you meant, you make a complete pass up and down and then finish up right to left ?

Thanks again Bud :)
 
I have used a rotary buffer off and on for 30 plus years.
On some paints I have been able to remove all swirls with it on others almost all.
Before the PC came along the remaining swirls were removed by hand with a very fine polish.
A product that seems to help in removing the last of the swirls is Meguiars #3 Machine Glaze.
Being a glaze it will fill the remaining swirls or if you work it enough,it will also remove them because it is also a polish (rated #1 on Meguiars abrasive scale ... which is less than SFP #3 on scale).
The best advice I can offer in addition to proper speeds and products is to keep the pads clean.
I have found that if my wool pads sit for very long without being used, it is impossible to buff without getting swirls.
I might be getting lazy, but lately I use a combination of the rotary and the PC.
I use the rotary for the heavy cutting and polishing and then follow up with the PC.
Todays paints vary so much from car to car that I use whatever tool that gets me the results I am after.
At least I do not have to wear my arms out rubbing out the paint by hand.
Remember, there are many different tools available to accomplish a great job ... experiment and find the best combination for you
 
chip,

I am experimenting with both product and technique.

Also, if I am not mistaken, Shotime......the Meguair products you mentioned have filler oils in, hence this is the reason you may not see any swirls. To be sure wipe the car down with a 50/50 mixture of water and alcohol or a paint prep product like Hi-Temps "Klean".

Use a "true" polish, meaning a polish with no fillers.

Anthony
 
Anthony,

thanks for backing my point. I'm not at all after brown nosing, or anything like that, it's just that I too have found that without properly wiping the product with a 50/50 alcohol water mix, the finish appears flawless, which can be misleading. Shotime, I'm not at all knocking you here, but just wanted to point out that to really claim a swirl free finish, one must make sure it is so, by properly wiping any filler oils leftover by some polish. I'm not much in a position to tell others what to do, given you and others have way more years of experience than I do, but I think this last point is worth mentioning. Please don't be offended, as in no way am I trying to produce such a reaction.


Best regards
 
There's one thing I'm not clear about though : when you say never move in the same direction, do you mean the first stroke is say up and down and then the second right to left, the third is then diagonal ? Or rather you meant, you make a complete pass up and down and then finish up right to left ?

Thanks again Bud :)
Click to expand...


Do the whole panel in one direction, then switch directions and do the whole panel again and so on.

I don't wipe down the panels with alcohol because I've never had a problem with swirls reappearing. My dad's Mountaineer is black and I see it most every day. I used the rotory on in about 2 months ago and any swirls in the paint that appeared since then were caused by normal wear and tear. He totally neglects it so if any rotory installed swirls were there, they'd be obvious and have shown by now.
 
chip douglas said:
I truly hope to start a debate out of this conversation about the buffer not being able to totally remove swirling. I really wonder what is the technique behind it, I mean if one starts with the less abrasive combination of pads/compounds, works on a very clean surface, use high quality micro fibers, doesn't dry buff, run the rotary in a cross hatch manner, keeping the pad as flat as can be etc...

I know that there are stuffs that only come through experience, however buffing is not *that* complicated I'm sure, as I've done for two years now. It can be tricky as different paint, react differently, but I'd really like as much experienced rotary users to chime in on this :

can the rotary really take *all* swirls out ? Yes I'm insisting on this aspect, and I'm sure there are others who wonder about the same. If anyone exprienced user can come up and outline the way to get rid of *all* swirls with the rotary, that would really be nice, and I mean it :)
Click to expand...
Yes all swirls can be removed with a rotary. It's technique and experience that does it. I sometimes despise those who say that "it's not all that hard." If it wasn't, then we all could buff cars without leaving behind swirls. It's also like saying Michael Angelo's David is just a carved piece of marble and anyone could do it. Buffing paint to me is more than a process, it's an art form -- the vehicle is my canvas and the compounds/polishes/waxes are my paints. If anyone has ever polished Plexiglas they will know that polishing surfaces is a series of steps. First it's something rough and abrasive, next comes something finer in the amount of grit. Next something even finer. Then we move into the finishing polishing processes. Each time the process is repeated with the corresponding product the surface gets smoother and smoother as the scratches become less and less. Eventually, the surface is smooth as glass and translucent. You can not skip steps in the process for without the finer abrasives before the polish, you can never remove the scratches. As an example, if you were to wet sand a section of the vehicle with 1000 grit paper then wax over it, it would be shiny, it would be reflective, it would bead water and be smooth -- but those scratches are still there. There are also something called towel scratches which are entirely different from swirls. To demonstrate, get a good looking, clean black vehicle. Now take a dry terry-cloth towel and wipe it across the hood -- what is left behind are towel scratches. These are easily removed with a good wax or glaze. Swirls are uniform circular marks left behind from a high speed polisher (just like that of a record -- if ya don't know what a record is, put down your I-Pod/MP3 player and go ask your parents). You cannot get swirls in a car from anything other than a polisher -- period. For those that are having difficulty with swirls I offer up a suggested swirl removal process -- get a meg's W9000 pad (the beige one) and some BAF Pro Polish #1. As a last step in your process, before applying hand wax or glaze, buff using the polish at a setting of around 2k rpm. If there are swirls going front to back, go side to side just to see if they are from the polish or previous steps. If they are from previous steps, they will still be front to back and will need to be removed with a polish/pad combination of a lesser grit than the previous step, but greater than the polish. I can't demonstrate pad positioning, pressure techniques, trigger feathering, or any of the other tricks I have learned over the years -- that'll have to come from your own experience. I can tell you though to imagine and think of the direction the pad spins and keep in mind that you do not want to use the section of the pad that will go side to side but the section of pad that will go front to back. And as another helping method, loose the buffer handle.
 
I can tell you though to imagine and think of the direction the pad spins and keep in mind that you do not want to use the section of the pad that will go side to side but the section of pad that will go front to back. And as another helping method, loose the buffer handle.


But isn't the pad supposed to be flat as much as possible ? Maybe I'm wrong but from what you wrote, I take it to mean that the pad is slighlty tilted, to get the one section you say one should. Would you be so kind as to explain that part alone some more ?

Cheers :)
 
dr_detail
You nailed it!
"It's technique and experience that does it."
Polishing paint is the same as polishing fine jewelery or pieces for plastic injection molding.
You start out with a product to level the existing marks and work down in abrasiveness to achieve a flawless finish.
I have polished hardened metal pieces to the point that the reflection is pure.
Not everyone is capable of doing that ... I am not saying that to brag ... but it takes learned skills and a desire to achieve the desired result.
A lot of people want the desired result but do not want to invest the time and effort to achieve it.
Rather than spending time debating this issue, why not grab the rotary and practice until the desired results are achieved
 
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