True Condition AFTER Polishing

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Is it possible that the gloss enhancers / fillers in Meguiar's #83 DACP and #80 Speed Glaze hide the true condition of the paint so much so that a detailer would think he's done prepping the paint for the LSP?



IMHO, one of Meguiar's intentions for these abrade-then-glossify/fill products was to save time (less work) and money (fewer products required) for the detailer.



Of course, this greatly depends on the detailer's skill as some use #80 (or a similar product) to remove micro-marring left behind by #83 while others go directly to the LSP after #83 or #80 (maybe this group didn't see any more defects because of the fillers?).



Maybe it's easier to see the true condition of the paint using polishes that don't fill? I'd hate to have to redo the paint prep again because the fillers hid the remaining defects. Do I have a valid concern?
 
Yes, but maybe/probably not with those specific products.

Your valid concern is why I rely heavily upon AIO. I feel confident that it cleans any and all buffing residue and possible fillers.



Good lighting is your friend, also.



Jim
 
I put this on another thread so I'll try to give the short version.



I used #80 on Accumulatorette's A8. Mild/normal marring but very hard clear. Two-three passes using the Cyclo. Looked *much* better, though not perfect in the most demanding light. Still, perfectly good enough for a silver driver, even by Autopian standards.



I then went over the A8 with Pinnacle's (now discontinued) Creme Glaz, a sorta-AIO-like product with mild cleaners. These cleaners took off the #80's "trade secret oils", exposing much more "left over" marring than I expected to see.



I'd never followed #80 with a cleaner before so I don't know if it always does this much hiding.



Nothing *wrong* with #80; it's my favorite Meg's polish- it's user-friendly and it does cut pretty well. But it can, apparently, trick you as to its mechanical effectiveness.
 
If you are as demanding as Accumulator and I, the #80 sounds most approppriate for seriously defected paint that needs fillers or otherwise risk clear failure/paint damage or something for an all original, classic show car.



I suspect there may be some issues with trying to top paint polished with #80 with some non AIO-type sealants ( due to the oils) :nixweiss
 
Thats why you make sure you remove all the swirls first. With your polishing step you can remove swirls and still bring out the gloss & depth of the paint. After my initial polishing step if its a heavy or meduim cut i go to a lighter cut then my cleaner polish. So at that time after you do the cleaner polish thats the way a clean swirl free vehicle looks. The rest of the products that come later are like icing onthe cake. Considering that you may want to use something like 80 or VM then you can go to an lsp then top.
 
6']['9 said:
Thats why you make sure you remove all the swirls first. With your polishing step you can remove swirls and still bring out the gloss & depth of the paint. After my initial polishing step if its a heavy or meduim cut i go to a lighter cut then my cleaner polish. So at that time after you do the cleaner polish thats the way a clean swirl free vehicle looks. The rest of the products that come later are like icing onthe cake. Considering that you may want to use something like 80 or VM then you can go to an lsp then top.
Click to expand...



Yeah, but IMO that's where the confusion regarding #80 comes in. It's supposed to be a product that cuts quite a bit and yet breaks down enough to be a punultimate step product. Note that its position on Meg's "abrasiveness scale" is an error, it's initially more abrasive than its listing implies (that's straight from Mike Phillips at Meg's).



It's more aggressive than most "light polishes" and it can do some pretty impressive (mechanical/abrasive) correction on most paints. It's *FAR* more aggressive than VM, for instance, enough so that IMO its "Speed Glaze" name is sorta misleading. Sometimes it's even too abrasive to be used right befor a LSP (you need a follow up with a milder product). In fact, #80 is more abrasive than many of the polishes I use.



Funny stuff, but it works great for a lot of people.
 
LightningSVT, I guess Accumulator's reply answers your question, at least for #80 Speed Glaze.



Accumulator, thanks for the real-world example. Would you mind mentioning the milder polishes (than #80, that is) that you use?



Jimmy Buffit, I too like AIO because of its cleaning ability and am looking at getting a portable high-powered halogen search light. Unfortunately, if the AIO wipe reveals that there are remaining defects (which couldn't be seen even with the light), wouldn't you go over it again with a polish then followed with AIO? This seems expensive. Wouldn't it be more economical to use the alochol/water mix technique before you put in AIO? Or even use Menzerna IP/FPII so that you don't even have to check? (See my question below)



Bill D, thanks for the link. Very educational! Ron Ketcham's post makes a lot of sense. However, would you still perform this step (alochol/water solution wipe-down) if you were using Menzerna IP or FPII? It seems to me that they're a What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get (WYSIWYG) set of polishes.



To be clear, Ron Ketcham did say to spray on a small area that's just been polished. I guess the extra time taken to inspect could be well worth it but this would depend on the detailing goal: either defect removal or defect minimization.
 
Bill D said:
For an easy way to see if you have fillers have a mixture of water and isopropyl alcohol as well as a solvent such as Prepsol and Prep All handy. If I were doing a full detail I would use them before and after polishing step to ensure I wasn't kidding myself with the results I got.



Here's a procedure for using the alcohol solution:



http://www.web-cars.com/detail/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=19936&t=19913
Click to expand...





I did this after using Megs DACP and defects I thought I had removed re-appeared. Most of Megs polishes have fillers this is why I no longer use them.



There was a thread a couple days ago about Megs DACP and weather or not it contained fillers. Dookie and Mosca seemed to think it didn't and Mosca was going to get more info from Mike Phillips. I have heard Megs line about trade secret oils in the polishes to prevent marring the finish. I don't buy it. My 3M Perfect It III and Menzerna compounds and polishes work great without fillers.
 
stevet, from reading the Meguiar's product descriptions, I think #1 Medium-Cut Cleaner, #2 Fine-Cut Cleaner, and #82 Swirl Free Polish are the only polishes that do not have fillers.



I'd have to agree with you on Menzerna. I didn't know 3M's Perfect It III polish was "pure" (filler-free) as well. Thanks for the tip. :xyxthumbs
 
stevet,



Yeah I agree. I've had more luck with Menzerna but I always have PI III MG and RC on hand as well :up I might be eyeing Hi Temp, another filler free line of polishes, if I understand correctly.



So, to the best of my knowledge, the overall filler free polish brands discussed online are:



3m Perfect It Series



Menzerna



Poorboys SSR Series



Hi Temp



Valugard ( autoint)



Farecla (?)



similar offerings from PPG and Dupont ( ?) --in house body shop product as well as many other, numerous pro brand lines



Please add to list if you can think of more.



I'm still a fan of 1z polishes, which contain wax, though. So I cannot call myself an absolute purist :o I remain amazed that even after the Prep All or alcohol wipe down, the marring or swirls are indeed removed.
 
So Bill D, would you still do the alcohol/water wipe-down even after using a filler-free polish like the ones you mentioned?
 
merci said:
mentioning the milder polishes (than #80, that is) that you use?
Click to expand...



Four good ones that come readily to mind are: 3M PI-III MG (05967), 1Z Metallic Polish (I prefer the "Pro" version, which contains less wax), Griot's Machine Polish #3, and Menzerna FP. Malm's polish is probably a little milder than #80 and isn't really all that bad a product (but it can be a bear to remove); their #10 glaze is even milder and contains wax.
 
Bill D said:
stevet,



Yeah I agree. I've had more luck with Menzerna but I always have PI III MG and RC on hand as well :up I might be eyeing Hi Temp, another filler free line of polishes, if I understand correctly.



So, to the best of my knowledge, the overall filler free polish brands discussed online are:



3m Perfect It Series



Menzerna



Hi Temp



Valugard ( autoint)



Farecla (?)



similar offerings from PPG and Dupont ( ?) --in house body shop product as well as many other, numerous pro brand lines



Please add to list if you can think of more.



I'm still a fan of 1z polishes, which contain wax, though. So I cannot call myself an absolute purist :o I remain amazed that even after the Prep All or alcohol wipe down, the marring or swirls are indeed removed.
Click to expand...







Bill,



I haven't tried them but from what I understand Poorboy's SSR series of polishes are also free of fillers.
 
merci said:
So Bill D, would you still do the alcohol/water wipe-down even after using a filler-free polish like the ones you mentioned?
Click to expand...



I have, but for a different purpose: when I foolishly used too much product and needed to remove excess and splatter. If I feel there may be a film of some type ( not necessarily filler) left behind from one polishing step, I may also go to them first before proceeding. I always want squeaky clean paint for each step, but this certainly isn't dogma.



I also generally keep the alcohol mix and Prep All on hand for removing existing sealant or wax ( some simply polish right over them though) or even tackling minor road tar/other contaminants.
 
I've just started using ssr polishes and I'm very impressed. I have ssr2.5 & ssr1. Most of the time I can go right to lsp after ssr 2.5. SSR2.5 I find far more abrasive than my 1zpp but less abrasive than my 1zup. I love using these polishes because I can see the results without wondering if the fillers are hiding anything. I still like the look of 1z polishes especially mp, but ssr polishes have found a place in my product line.
 
In my opinion there is no better product based on $$ per oz. and ability than TOTL's Light Cut. I havent tried their medium cut yet, but the light cut is pretty nice.
 
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