The lemon list

[rstype]

Daewoo auto is gone. My friend had one and the engine died 1 yr after they bought it brand new. They were screwed since it was about the same time their auto division was shutting down.



Possible reasons for Kia, Daewoo, Hyundai not being in the list:

-not enough car owners. They might have a minimum # of car owners to be considered. I do see a crapload of Kias, though.

-the models are too new? not enough data?

Daewoos are coming back to the US as rebadged Chevys and Suzukis, though. FYI, Hyundai sold 375,000 cars last year in the US, while Kia sold 237,000. That's more than several companies on that list.



To be honest, I'm impressed by the Elantra - it's very well made for the class. The Sorento and Sedona are behind the competition, but they got the important things right. I would rather have one over any similarly priced GM.

 

[Jngrbrdman]

Most of the cars on that list are cars I'd never buy based on resale value alone. I had a salesman tell me once that the Honda Civic DX was the best car to buy if you wanted to get a high resale value out of it. After 5 years it still retains 75% of its original value. That is why I'll stick with my Honda's. They hold their value up amazingly well. I'll bet Scott's Accord is still worth 3 grand or so. You have to have a real piece of crap ancient Honda for it to be worth not a lot. You can pay a Honda down way faster than they depreciate. Toyotas and Subarus are similar. Good resale values because they are reliable.



I think the point was made earlier that this doesn't reflect any specific safety or reliability issues. I would love to know the break down of drivetrain complaints vs interior annoyances. I don't think that any of those cars showing up on the list speaks directly at their reliability. Only that there are a lot of whiney people in the world who bought the most popular cars in America. Gee.... I wonder why the top selling cars in America all showed up on that list. Odd...



The list that I would like to see are the cars that get the fewest complaints. Start with 0 complaints and work your way up the list. Now that would be a cool list.

 

[Nikon]

I on the other hand believed the hype of Honda products. Your point is well made on the interior, very cheesy fabrics. Moving outside, very flimsy body parts, bad paint jobs. Under the hood, AC compressors that can't last a year. Suspension components??? My rant could go on for pages. Maybe the engine will run on and on, but what good will it do if there is no car around it to go anywhere?

Hmmm, personal experiences and preferences I guess. My civic has very high mileage and I drive every day on the freeway to work and back. I drive it hard and I maintain it well (I’m a licensed motor mechanic by trade and even though I have long since changed careers I’m still a stickler for regular maintenance). I think the fabric and interior in general on my civic are excellent. Body parts are good although the rear bumper cover could fit better to the quarter panel. AC is fine, I bought the Honda Kit and installed it myself, and I have had no problems with it. Then again, I don't live in an extremely hot location. Suspension has been very good for me with the exception of a left upper ball joint that the dealer replaced last year (198,000). It felt funny after the replacement. As I expected it wore out this year. I decided not to bother with going back to the dealer because they obviously don't know how to replace and lubricate an upper ball joint properly so I replaced it myself this time.



I'm happy with this car but I realize others don't have the same experiences and I respect that. I find it interesting that when we have a good experience with a certain car we feel that anyone who reports something bad must be wrong and we then feel the need to defend the brand. I think this is what psychologists call cognitive dissonance. It is essentially a subconscious reaction to confirm our decisions as good ones.



In my view the important thing with cars is to find one you like and are happy with. If someone else buys a car that you don't like but they are happy with it understand that his/her experience is different and respect their view point. The same goes for those who have bad experiences. I don't own Honda the company I just buy their products. If my Honda cars or any other car I buy provides me with a disappointing experience I won't buy it again. So far so good, and just because I like it doesn't mean anyone else has to.



I do have a question though because I like to use consumer reports, Lemon Aid, and other consumer information in making good purchases. In fact, the reason I bought a Honda in the first place is because I wanted to one of the most reliable cars on the market. The information I searched out all pointed me to the civic and the information (for me) has been very accurate (in my view and experience.) So when information is presented that appears to disagree with several other sources how do we take this?

 

[gnahc79]

dang Nikon, why you gotta be logical and reasonable?



my ongoing rant on improper inference from these stats:



1) The stats are based on people registering a complaint with the fed gov. It is not based on records of any and all services done on a car...btw, do they even have access to that based on the VIN? Is there a demographic that is more likely to register a complaint? Maybe. Is there a demographic that is more likely to buy car A than car B? Absolutely. Is there a demographic that is more likely to take better care of their car? Maybe.

2) The distribution of cars isn't uniform. They didn't provide the actual # of complaints and # of cars, so I don't know how skewed the data is. This is why the Accord and Camry are always near the top of the list for stolen cars. There's more of them, more of them will need repair, so of course they'll be stolen more often.

3) Since when did a complaint mean that a car is a lemon car?



There's too many variables. I guess you could take the avg # of complaints and just point out any outliers, like the Escape. Now if these peeps combined the complaint data with # of recalls, how long people own the cars, etc. I wouldn't be so skeptical.

 

[Jngrbrdman]

Well, I guess I found the least amount of complaints list. It doesn't look like the imports are doing to shabby on this list. http://www.lemonlaw.com/bestbuys.html They are full of crap if they think the Celica is called the Solara now. Aren't they aware that those are two totally seperate cars?? Isn't the Solara more like a Camry or something? I'm not up on my Toyotas so I could be wrong. I've seen a solara before and there is no way it could be confused with a Celica.

 

[Nikon]

1) The stats are based on people registering a complaint with the fed gov. It is not based on records of any and all services done on a car...btw, do they even have access to that based on the VIN? Is there a demographic that is more likely to register a complaint? Maybe. Is there a demographic that is more likely to buy car A than car B? Absolutely. Is there a demographic that is more likely to take better care of their car? Maybe.

2) The distribution of cars isn't uniform. They didn't provide the actual # of complaints and # of cars, so I don't know how skewed the data is. This is why the Accord and Camry are always near the top of the list for stolen cars. There's more of them, more of them will need repair, so of course they'll be stolen more often.

3) Since when did a complaint mean that a car is a lemon car?



There's too many variables. I guess you could take the avg # of complaints and just point out any outliers, like the Escape. Now if these peeps combined the complaint data with # of recalls, how long people own the cars, etc. I wouldn't be so skeptical.

Yes, you make some very good points. As always, the quality of the data is what is important. Consumer Reports, and JD Power and Associates and others are more likely to apply more statistically valid procedures in gathering and assessing this information. And, as I infer from your response, complaints may have nothing to do with reliability because that is just one criteria of total ownership satisfaction. For instance, I’m sure a 7 foot person would complain that the civic is too small and a 5 foot person may complain that the seats are too low. Or a person that is looking for mondo performance will complain that the engine lacks power.

 

[ryeh2o]

I just replied to the thread on 2003 Accords and i started to read this thread and dejavue! I'm not surprised at all that Honda was on that list for the 03 model year because they suck this year!

That's about it.



Cheers!

 

[Nikon]

Honda is among just seven car brands to be rated "Best" in Which?* magazine's annual car reliability survey published today, 7 August. Furthermore, both the British-built Honda Accord and Japanese-built Jazz models achieved a 100% breakdown free record, a feat achieved by just five other car models.



Other Honda models also performed exceptionally well in the survey, with the current Civic and CR-V both achieving 99% reliability, and the previous model CR-V achieving 98%.



These results are further testimony to the quality of Honda's Swindon-built models, since the Accord, Civic and current CR-V models featured in the survey are all built at the company's Wiltshire plant.

This article refers to UK built Honda's. Could the country of manufacture have an impact on product quality?

 

[ryeh2o]

I think you have brought up a valid point Nikon. They are manufacturing crap in north america where there is the most volume and the highest perceived quality by the general public.

I guess they figure they can get away with it over here?

 

[Scottwax]

We're on our third, all genuine Honda replacement parts btw. The first lasted @ 2 years, the second just over a year.



This being our first Honda, I can't speak with any great knowledge or background, but can you really compare build quality of Civics and Accords?

I got my compressor at a wrecking yard (Honda Heaven) and it has worked fine.



I think you can compare build quality between Civics and Accords, as far as quality of panel fitment, suspension characteristics, interior fit and finish (although of course, the Accord is a bit more upscale), instrument panel layout and paint quality. The engines are of similar refinement, but the Accord does have more low end torque.





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As far as my vehicle choices have been, yeah all the domestics have been GM, but it seems the most reliable GMs I had were the ones made in the 70's. The ones from '79 (the Sunturd) and the '81 (Citation) and '86 (Delta 88) were all major POSs with constant problems. GM seems to have lost their focus in the 80's big time when it comes to quality.



Both my Celicas were pretty reliable too.

 

[imported_chr9s]

I own a 13 year old Toyota Corolla and it continues to serve me well. My only major repair to date is replacing the distributor assembly. The rotor has an oil seal that is prone to leaks, which is I think a weak point of this model. Other than that, I'm very satisfied with the build quality and reliability of Toyotas, at least of my car's era. I wouldn't mind owning another Toyota for my next import.

 

[boywonder]

Well, I guess I found the least amount of complaints list. It doesn't look like the imports are doing to shabby on this list. http://www.lemonlaw.com/bestbuys.html They are full of crap if they think the Celica is called the Solara now. Aren't they aware that those are two totally seperate cars?? Isn't the Solara more like a Camry or something? I'm not up on my Toyotas so I could be wrong. I've seen a solara before and there is no way it could be confused with a Celica.

Correct, Solara is essentially a Camry Coupe.

I also saw that they grouped the Buick Century as a luxury car.



<<<< Happy that Maximas are #1 in the sedan category.

 

[hondaguy2582]

Well, I also maintain my honda if that helps any at all, I use synthetic oil, rotate tires when needed, change air filter, basic stuff. This car has never failed me, never had a problem starting it, never stahled(unless i let go of the clutch when stopped), heck, Ive never had a problem. Sure, every car is different from the factory, but everyone has different experiences. I have yet to see a honda have a direct engine problem. My civic is a 2002 ex 5 spd, nothing wrong with it, interior is fine(quality interior let me tell you). My only complaint is the suspension bounces a little bit in front if i go over a slight drop then raise in the highway, but thats because they changed the suspension to a macpherson strut instead of keeping the double wishbone. I really could care less about it, because no car is perfect. This car is perfect for me because its going to last me for as long as I keep it, and thats all I want out of this car. Again, to each his/her own. but I'll keep buying hondas until they start making junk and have bs customer service.

 

[Kleanride]

I haven't had a chance to read all of this yet, but I gotta get flyin' here and I wanted to post this........



About 6 weeks ago in the Minneapolis Star Tribune newspaper, there was a REALLY interesting article about GM and Ford quality. (anybody see this? even better, anyone subscribe online?? then it would be available thru the archive section, and postable)

Basically, what this GM Quality spokesperson said is that GM is introducing Toyota & Honda Quality procedures as a benchmark for 2003+ models. GM's 'Road to Redemption' ad campaign that ran earlier this year was an apology to the GM buyer for their pre-2003 work, where even GM knew that they couldn't keep up with Toyota or Honda.

(gotta fly in a minute-more later)

Also, the Ford 'if you haven't looked at ford lately, look again' slogan is along the same lines as Road to Redemption.

Basically, it said that all American car manufacturers look up to Toyota and Honda in quality and such.



I think/heard, that if you look closely on those Chevy truck commercial--longest lasting trucks on the road*, if you read the * at the bottom, it basically says 'less Toyota' somehow....



Gotta fly! Great thread!

 

[Nikon]

My only complaint is the suspension bounces a little bit in front if i go over a slight drop then raise in the highway, but thats because they changed the suspension to a macpherson strut instead of keeping the double wishbone.

I road tested a 2002 civic ex and, like your, found it quite bouncy in comparison to my 95's double wish bone setup.



Honda went to the mcpherson for space purposes because the double wish bone set up didn't allow for the new hood and fender lines. That's what I heard anyway.

 

[Kleanride]

Say Honda owners....

What about clutches? Anyone had to replace one at all? What mileage?

 

[JustinR32]

The "skew" in this set of statistics is customer expectation. I work at a dual Chevrolet/Subaru dealership. Subaru customers will complain about things that Chevrolet customers don't notice; wind noise, rattles, misfit panels, and the like. So, a quality vehicle like the Legacy makes the list because the list is made BY LEMON LAW LAWYERS from vehicle owners who have been solicited for complaints.



Tom