Survey about holograms

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DetailKnight

New member
:argueI am just curious to see how many detailers out there think that you can use a rotary buffer on paint, and not swirl/hologram the paint?! I personally have never met anyone that could do it, and can't do it myself, so lets read some responses.
 
I'venever been able to do it on b/c, but have done it on single stage.



But just because I can't do it, that doesn't mean I don't believe other people can. I will point out that most of the people I believe *can* do it admit that they can't *always* pull it off on every vehicle.
 
If you use a finishing pad & polish you shouldn't be instilling buffer swirls when used with the right techniques. And you're not overstepping the boundries of this last step such as going from a wool/compound to final finishing. What and how are you guys using that won't allow this from occuring?
 
I think this is one of those statements that is really about effectively vs possibly. Similar to is it possible to correct a heavily swirled car with a PC (though this is becoming LESS of a valid argument).



IMO, it is very possible to finish down hologram free with a rotary, but it is time ineffective. I spend way more time worrying about my pattern, pressure and keeping the pad level (and clean). So much easier and brainless to just grab the GG6.
 
A rotary buffer is great for "leveling paint", removing more severe imperfections, and even bringing back "depth" and luster to paint than any other method! But, to actually get a completely swirl mark/ hologram free finish... there has to be more steps! I believe that a lot of detailer's think that they have done it, but in truth, if they degreased the vehicle to remove oils and such left by compounds and polishes, they would see what was really there. You can also cover most swirl marks/ holograms with wax, but when the wax is gone... here come the swirl marks/ holograms back to haunt you. I am going to refer back to Barry Theal's recent Bentley 60 hour detail, and say that Barry is super knowledgeable, and there is a reason that after he wool padded the vehicle, he followed up with a DA to polish it... which would remove any swirl marks/ holograms left by the rotary, and also degreased the vehicle to make sure he was getting any and all marks/ holograms out of the paint.
 
yakky said:
IMO, it is very possible to finish down hologram free with a rotary, but it is time ineffective. I spend way more time worrying about my pattern, pressure and keeping the pad level (and clean). So much easier and brainless to just grab the GG6.
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Exactly. Finishing with a Da is so easy too. And you never have to worry about buffer swirls either.
 
I finish just about every car with a rotary polisher. It certainly takes time, but the end result is better. The problem with a d.a. Polisher is you can't get your pad as close around edges. Flat panels are a piece of cake as long as you're using the right pads and polishes. I like to finish down with Menzerna 85rd or super finish with a white ccs pad for most applications.
 
I think it can definitely be done (on most paints), but I also agree that many users "think" they have a hologram free finish when the car leaves, but I doubt they've actually gone through all the precautionary measure to make "sure" they're truly gone. I know that back in my high volume days I had cars looking perfect when they were done, only to see them later filled with hologrmas....obviously that was a long time ago, long before I found Autopia and other detailing forums, where I realized I was not as good as I thought I was. :D



Personally, I like to finish with a DA now ensuring my cars leave with a 100% hologram free finish, and I'll usually take that over any marginal improvement in gloss that a rotary may or may not provide. However, It really comes down to the job for me and I'll use whatever tool best yields the results I'm looking for.





Cheers,

Rasky
 
RaskyR1 said:
I think it can definitely be done (on most paints), but I also agree that many users "think" they have a hologram free finish when the car leaves, but I doubt they've actually gone through all the precautionary measure to make "sure" they're truly gone...
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That reminds me of the Yukon I used to have, the Carbon Metallic one. That paint was simply murder to inspect; my wife and I would have work together to affect a "light to shadow to light transition" and we he had to have it in just the right position, at just the right time of day, with both of us really working at it. We'd spend half an hour per session (no exaggeration) and then find some super-light hologram that only showed up at that one illumination/viewing angle (and then fixing it in the shop, with different lighting, was a whole 'nother challenge). Then we'd have to do it all over again the next day when the light was just right again!



I can't hel\
 
There is no doubt that detailers can use a rotary and not leave holograms

I love to use my Shinex and Makita 9227 rotaries for compoundless correction with a truly waterborne non filling single polish system.



How I get no holograms is to jewel the paint with every step. that is to go from whatever rpm I'm correcting at (between 1000 and 1500) and clean the pad with compressed air half way through polishing each section (regardless of being wool or foam) and then slowing down back to 1000, 900, 750 and 600.



Once thats done and I've checked the panel, its usually flawless. this can be six to 11 minutes doing just one section. but its worth it because then I can skip pad grades if I wish.



I use black baron and ONR as my wetting agents to ensure no dry buffing which will leave marring behind if you do that.



yes sometimes there may be holograms, we all stuff up now and then but if they are there then mine are extremely fine and can be removed easily. holograms are only surface marring not sub surface. DA's or RO's can take them out.



Would I ever rotary only polish a car, No Way. A DA or random orbital craps all over a rotary for jewelling doing one, two or three steps with 70 to 100 ppi foams pads.

It also guarantees hologram free paint every single time



My Tip for not leaving holograms behind with a rotary, even with a wool pad, unless the paint is soft.



1. Prime the pad with a good silicone/protection free wetting agent and also some product. rub the polish into the pad at 9 and 3 o clock positions.

Black baron is the king but sadly isnt made anymore because people began priming with polish only which IMO doesnt work.

I still use bb today and love it. dry marring proof polishing and no dust.



2. Don't ever do one speed buffing. As I've stated many times before, buffing at 1000 to 1500 rpm then stopping is guaranteed to leave holograms behind unless your talented.

Slow those RPMs down slowly at 200 rpm a time all the way to 600 rpm or 750 - 900

if you see holograms, add a tiny drop of polish again if needed and keep jewelling at 900 rpm. yes even with a wool or foamed wool pad.



if you do this, you can forget about using those horrible heavy cut foams and go to a polishing or light cut foam

this takes longer (I spend up to 11 minutes a section with orbital or rotary)but man the results are crazy.



3. Take your time. I've seen body shop guys buffing a section of a panel for 30 seconds to one minute with a wool or foam pad and a compound or single polish system.

Now how does one get a hologram/marring free result by buffing for 30 seconds to 1 minute. You cannot.

Every time you polish paint, you remove damage and instill your own. You must slow down and remove what you put in.



4 to 11 minutes is the right amount.



4. Don't use compounds. Their time has come and gone. Why bother with a traditional compound that cuts heavily and contains crappy solvent based lubricants like stoddard solvent and also contains clay and oil to fill.



Switch to a single polish system to go from start to finish and on dark colours or exotic ones, use another single polish or finishing polish to give the paint that wow factor

I've got two polishes in my arsenal from the one company. both are Single polishes but the second one is the finishing polish as well as the correction product for ceramic paints.

I refuse to use compounds today. too many are solvent based, too dry, dusty, messy and leave behind swirls.



Finally - make sure the backing plate you use spins perfectly circular. There are many from new that have a manufacturing defect where it spins with a wobble in it

this will cause marring and holograms



Same goes for your rotary. The spindle on them can develop an orbital like motion and leave marring and holograms over time if you use 5/8ths US threaded plates on an M14 threaded spindle or vice versa. This happened to me last year.



dont use M14 plates on 5/8ths spindles with a superbuff adaptor. that will do it every time.
 
RaskyR1 said:
I think it can definitely be done (on most paints), but I also agree that many users "think" they have a hologram free finish when the car leaves, but I doubt they've actually gone through all the precautionary measure to make "sure" they're truly gone. I know that back in my high volume days I had cars looking perfect when they were done, only to see them later filled with hologrmas....obviously that was a long time ago, long before I found Autopia and other detailing forums, where I realized I was not as good as I thought I was. :D



Personally, I like to finish with a DA now ensuring my cars leave with a 100% hologram free finish, and I'll usually take that over any marginal improvement in gloss that a rotary may or may not provide. However, It really comes down to the job for me and I'll use whatever tool best yields the results I'm looking for.





Cheers,

Rasky
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I now believe that any random orbital or DA will provide a superior finish when jewelling the paint with a single polish system or finishing polish to that of a rotary.



Using my Makita BO6030 from speed 5 slowly back to 4, 3, 2 and 1 with a 70 ppi to 100 ppi foam pad is superior to a rotary from my experience. And I jewel with every step on the rotary.



Anyhow I doubt we will be using rotaries as much from 2012 because of the Surbuf and Meguiars Microfibre discs combined with D/A's and high speed RO's like my makita as well as the Buff Pro unit



I can see rotaries being used tonly to remove orange peel without sanding and using the friction/heat of it to dissolve deep scratches within the next five to ten years.
 
SVR said:
I now believe that any random orbital or DA will provide a superior finish when jewelling the paint with a single polish system or finishing polish to that of a rotary..
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Heh heh, you and John Kleven could probably have an interesting :argue on that one; he's done some experimenting with his glossmeter that showed his rotary finishing to be superior :think:



Eh, far be it from me to stir the pot, I'm almost tempted to not post that :o



And FWIW, I do my burnishing with the Cyclo (or the Griot's if the Cyclo won't fit).
 
SVR said:
I can see rotaries being used tonly to remove orange peel without sanding and using the friction/heat of it to dissolve deep scratches within the next five to ten years.
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Not sure that will ever happen....
 
This is certainly an interesting discussion point. When I was detailing professionally, I always finished cars using the rotary polisher wherever possible, as I personally felt that when you get right down to the nitty gritty, the constant rotation of the rotary would break abrasives down more consistently than a DA giving a sharper finish - this is just my thoughts based on the physical actions of the machines, and tallies with a few tests that I have read or seen. There was a very good discussion on this over on Detailing World where tests were carried out using finishing polishes on a soft paint finish that was a solid colour (metallic flakes can hide a multitide of sins from the naked eye) and I remember a good discussion I had by PM with folk on this topic - the DA polisher, used with a variety of techniques, was visibly not finishing as sharply as the rotary polisher when viewed side by side. Not that the DA was leaving machine marring per se, it just wasn't seeming to finish the paint quite so sharply as the rotary could with equivalent polishes and pads.



From this I focused all my efforts on perfecting my finishing techniques with the rotary polisher, and while I will be the first to admit that on a detail it takes a lot of time to finish perfectly by rotary, it is definitely possible to do so. As mentioned above, you need to ensure your work times are suitably long on small work areas to fully work abrasives and ensure the finish is burnished to remove all traces of hologramming. It takes time. A lot of time - but in the end, I always found it to be worth it, and preferred it to the "easier" option of the DA (which, yes, is easier to finish tail-free with as the machine doesn't leave tails by its nature).



There are some paints where finishing with a DA makes your life a lot easier - paints that are "sticky" to rotary polishing, causing fast heating and dragging of the pad make it much more difficult to get the comfortable set length required to achieve a hologram free finish... I'd find myself coaxing the polish into life, and prolonging the set at slower speeds and it was a challenge from start to finish where you really would need to never loose one iota of concentration! The DA does relieve this "pressure", as they are not prone to issues on sticky paints and make finishing down much easier in this case.



On topic of DA vs. rotary finishing, I also find this to be very much polish dependent - a difference in finishing between rotary and DA was a little more pronounced with the old Meguiars #80-series polishes than it was with the Menzerna ceramiclear range for example, but in both occasions, the rotary seemed to finish just a little sharper. To my eye when testing (and I don;t have a glossmeter, so this is simply to my eye), I found that the rotary just seemed to have a very slight edge for me - oh so slight. You wouldn't say the difference was night and day, you wouldn't say the DA finish was poor. It was oh so slight. But in the days of chasing every little bit of brilliance you can in a finish, this little difference swayed me to finish by rotary consistently. Based on discussions and my own testing, which was limited by the fact it was just my eye that was being used to judge! An interesting discussion, and in my opinion, there is no definitive answer to it at present so I can only go on what my gut reaction and testing suggests to me.
 
Dave KG said:
This is certainly an interesting discussion point. On topic of DA vs. rotary finishing, I also find this to be very much polish dependent - a difference in finishing between rotary and DA was a little more pronounced with the old Meguiars #80-series polishes than it was with the Menzerna ceramiclear range for example...
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And the nondiminishing abrasive products are a whole 'nother matter, huh? :think:



Good point about metallics, other than one white beater car, all my vehicles have metallic paint. So what's significant to *me* might not be the same as for somebody with a black/red/etc. car.
 
For me I can finish down with a rotory. Keep in mind I say this for my buffing style. Its all up to me. I find when Im having issues finishing with a rotory its my mistake not the paints. Usally its because I apply to much pressure or not enough. I am a big fan of products with long working cycles when finishing down rotory. Another issue I have is getting lazy and not controlling the movement of the rotory polisher. Remember you have to control the machine and don't let machine control you. Look at it like a robot, if you program it to do one or two things it will perfectly. Humans get tired and impatient. Patience is a must on finishing down by rotory. Anything is possible to a degree, Stick with what works for you. We all learn basic principals, but those who become great,are the ones that take what they learn and make them there own!
 
RaskyR1 said:
Not sure that will ever happen....
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I'm already doing OP removal and so is my friend in Boise Idaho that I see every year.

An asian company currently offer a product and a foam pad to remove heavy orange peel
 
JohnKleven said:
The problem with a d.a. Polisher is you can't get your pad as close around edges. Flat panels are a piece of cake as long as you're using the right pads and polishes.
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I don't understand this statement. I was under the impression that a ROTARY was the one to be concerned about with regard to edges. :think:
 
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