Barry Theal
New member
Im glad cars comes with orange peel. That stuff keeps me busy removing it!
So I found out why car manufacturers intentionally put orange peel in their paint
- Thread starter Alexshimshimhae
- Start date
Ron Ketcham
Active member
I won't get all tied up trying to help all make sense of orange peel in the "clear" of new vehicles, so here is short primer of why.
1. The chemistry of OEM clear is entirely different than "refinish" clear material. (Refinish materials are actually "air curing" versus OEM which WILL NOT CURE OR CROSSLINK WITH OUT HIGH HEAT.) The "bake cycle in a body shop's down draft paint booth is not really "baking" the paint, but aiding in driving our or evaporating the solvents from the paint system so the air can then create the "curing or crosslinking" of the applied materials.
2. The "solvent system" of an OEM clear basically consist of three different solvents, the one that creates a "smooth non orange peel" finish is referred to as the "tailing solvent", which allows for the clear to even out better when the vehicle goes through the bake cycle.
3. OEM clears require very high temperatures to create the crosslinking or curing of the clear. Less than 10 years ago the max temp was around 212F to 235F, versus today they are baking in modern plants at close to 350F.
4. The time in the bake oven is also critical.
5. These changes are due to enviormental requirements of VOC releases and goverment mandated changes in the paints, solvents, etc.
6. An often heard comment is " this or that vehicle has a very soft clear, why?"
7. If one thinks and looks at those which exhibit "soft clears", normally, these vehicle exhibit very little orange peel.
8. Reason being that the "tailing solvent" is different, and allows an improved "flow out" of the clear while in the bake cycle.
9. These tailing solvents are the culprits that create the soft clear some may come in contact with.
10. These sort of soft clears are usually found on higher end vehicles, which have a customer base that expects a smoother, high gloss look.
11. The materials used (clear, etc) are more costly for these types of vehicles, plus normally the bake cycle takes longer.
So these are some basic facts of why some vehicles exhibit more orange peel, as well why some are more prone to marring and etching.
Grumpy
1. The chemistry of OEM clear is entirely different than "refinish" clear material. (Refinish materials are actually "air curing" versus OEM which WILL NOT CURE OR CROSSLINK WITH OUT HIGH HEAT.) The "bake cycle in a body shop's down draft paint booth is not really "baking" the paint, but aiding in driving our or evaporating the solvents from the paint system so the air can then create the "curing or crosslinking" of the applied materials.
2. The "solvent system" of an OEM clear basically consist of three different solvents, the one that creates a "smooth non orange peel" finish is referred to as the "tailing solvent", which allows for the clear to even out better when the vehicle goes through the bake cycle.
3. OEM clears require very high temperatures to create the crosslinking or curing of the clear. Less than 10 years ago the max temp was around 212F to 235F, versus today they are baking in modern plants at close to 350F.
4. The time in the bake oven is also critical.
5. These changes are due to enviormental requirements of VOC releases and goverment mandated changes in the paints, solvents, etc.
6. An often heard comment is " this or that vehicle has a very soft clear, why?"
7. If one thinks and looks at those which exhibit "soft clears", normally, these vehicle exhibit very little orange peel.
8. Reason being that the "tailing solvent" is different, and allows an improved "flow out" of the clear while in the bake cycle.
9. These tailing solvents are the culprits that create the soft clear some may come in contact with.
10. These sort of soft clears are usually found on higher end vehicles, which have a customer base that expects a smoother, high gloss look.
11. The materials used (clear, etc) are more costly for these types of vehicles, plus normally the bake cycle takes longer.
So these are some basic facts of why some vehicles exhibit more orange peel, as well why some are more prone to marring and etching.
Grumpy
I have had two cars painted at Earl Schieb (low cost paint shop)and had them put on two costs of clear. A $400 paint job looked better than any factory job after I color sanded it. No orange peal to speek of. No need to put a $1500 paint job on a $3000 car.
My $36K BMW doesn't look as good as those two cars. The beemer has more orange peel than Ophra rear end.
My $36K BMW doesn't look as good as those two cars. The beemer has more orange peel than Ophra rear end.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
TedFred said:
Which model of BMW, which plant and what year?
They had some serious paint issues a few years ago, mainly on 5's, but also some 3's.
RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
I just did a pre-delivery inspection on a 2011 M3 yesterday Ron and the paint looked like crap IMO. For a car of that price the orange peel looked terrible.
At least the dealer actually listened this time and didn't mess anything up!
I'll have the car in next weekend for an Opti-Guard application and I'll take some pics then that show how bad it is....the pic above is not focused on the surface so it's deceiving.
At least the dealer actually listened this time and didn't mess anything up!
I'll have the car in next weekend for an Opti-Guard application and I'll take some pics then that show how bad it is....the pic above is not focused on the surface so it's deceiving.
Ron Ketcham said:
2007 328I. I don't know what plant off hand. The paint is decent except for the orange peal. I am considering sanding it. Just hard to get two free days to throw away sanding and polishing. I am probalbly slower than most you guys because I only sand one car every 3 years
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Not sure, but if I recall those (German build) have a powder coat primer, which if not baked correctly in that bake cycle, will show orange peel, the clear just enhances the orange peel of the primer under the base and clear.
Wet sanding may reduce the appearance of the orange peel, one never knows.
On the other hand, be sure and measure the film build and don't remove more than the max allowed of .3 mil.
Grumpy
Wet sanding may reduce the appearance of the orange peel, one never knows.
On the other hand, be sure and measure the film build and don't remove more than the max allowed of .3 mil.
Grumpy
Tiger-Heli said:
The Mercedes cars in the 80s had significantly less orange peel then today, I started noticing the difference when they changed the S class in the early 90s.
I have a friend who owns a body shop and early on, his repairs were orange peel free but as the years have gone by and cars have more orange peel, he says the challenge is to match the factory orange peel so the repair isn't noticeable.
Junebug
JAFO
I guess that's why a certain bodyshop near me has a 3 month waiting list for getting your car repainted. The guy is a legend for perfection, and I guess it ain't cheap nor fast!
imported_Larry A
New member
Hyundais and Kias made in the U.S. have less o.p. then the same cars built in Korea, why. When G.M. used lacquer paint they would buff every car. In 1937 Cords were hand rubbed at the factory. Modern car makers could make the paint smooth as glass but they wont pay the price. How much extra would you pay on a new car price to have perfect paint, and how much would is cost ?
Brad B
New member
Mass production = orange peel! And the EPA regulations have made it tougher, too.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Ron Ketcham said:
Great info Ron. Can you answer this for me: Is there any correlation as to a vehicle manufacturer allowing heavier orange peel (F-150/Hummer) into their finishes so that they will be less prone to visable marring? Making them more durable.
I remember a discussion about OP where this was discussed: http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/93545-orange-peel-good.html
Ron Ketcham said:
Are you referring to the ones using PPG's Powdered Clears? If so, I've been told that was used on 5, 6 & 7 series. Notoriously hard paint too.
Ron Ketcham
Active member
Internet "wantabe's" spreading that sort of thing.
The orange peel is not planned, as a matter of fact many of the older F series plant paint kitchen manager were called on the carpet for excessive OP.
Not really their fault, the paint materials changed and their older robots and ovens could not quite adjust.
Takes a few million to up date a paint kitchen and since several of the plants were scheduled to be shutdown in a year or up to 3 years, corporate didn't want to spend the money.
Not talking about the slurry powder clear but a powder surface primer, and is being used more and more as it greatly reduces VOC releases.
The powder coat clear will get very dense/hard in a short time, however it is very sensitive to application/bake processes.
BMW had big issues with this as well. When they first started applying it, and most 5's were wrapped for shipment,when the transist (plastic) was removed, bad etching was in the clear.
Seems they run a water test on all of these model after assembly and then applied the wrap.
The clear had not totally crosslinked and the trapped water, combined with the heat while setting in ports, created etching (to the uninformed looked like waterspots) and in many cases required total refinishing of the horizontal surfaces at either the incoming port or dealers.
Grumpy
The orange peel is not planned, as a matter of fact many of the older F series plant paint kitchen manager were called on the carpet for excessive OP.
Not really their fault, the paint materials changed and their older robots and ovens could not quite adjust.
Takes a few million to up date a paint kitchen and since several of the plants were scheduled to be shutdown in a year or up to 3 years, corporate didn't want to spend the money.
Not talking about the slurry powder clear but a powder surface primer, and is being used more and more as it greatly reduces VOC releases.
The powder coat clear will get very dense/hard in a short time, however it is very sensitive to application/bake processes.
BMW had big issues with this as well. When they first started applying it, and most 5's were wrapped for shipment,when the transist (plastic) was removed, bad etching was in the clear.
Seems they run a water test on all of these model after assembly and then applied the wrap.
The clear had not totally crosslinked and the trapped water, combined with the heat while setting in ports, created etching (to the uninformed looked like waterspots) and in many cases required total refinishing of the horizontal surfaces at either the incoming port or dealers.
Grumpy