So I found out why car manufacturers intentionally put orange peel in their paint

[BRANDEN@3DPROD.]

Hyundai seems to have the least orange peel. Why does cars painted beige have less orange peel then other colors?

it might be just the color makes it much harder to see the orange peel, kind of like silver as well

 

[Accumulator]

Ok...So......If that is the case, Why is it the same with the Mega-dollar exotic cars that are hand made with some of them, (Lamborghini Guillardo SV) coming with paintjobs taking 200+ hours to complete? What is their excuse?

FWIW, I've seen some Lambos with more than just orangepeel issues...build quality that was in the "first attempt kit-car" range. I recall one (purple ) roadster that was simply awful.



While I'll admit the orangepeel on my Audis bugs me (hey, those things were kinda pricey when new), what can one do? I grumbled about it but it's not like I was gonna drive something else over it :nixweiss

 

[RaskyR1]

Ok...So...It is more about crappy VOC paint and the companies trying to squeeze every second out of the production line since time is money and nobody complains...Got it.



So...If that is the case, Why is it the same with the Mega-dollar exotic cars that are hand made with some of them, (Lamborghini Guillardo SV) coming with paintjobs taking 200+ hours to complete? What is their excuse? I get angry at the orangepeel on my Ford Escape. If I dropped 250K on a Lambo that had anything but GLASS as the finish of any surfaces I would sincerely be in prison for executing everyone in the dealership.

I believe most exotics are wet sanded smooth...though as many (especially Jesse) have shown us, they never look all that good from the factory.





Lexus seems to have some of the better paint IMO. My wife's '05 Acura RL was pretty smooth from the factory too.

 

[David Fermani]

Orange Peel is 1000% INTENTIONAL!!



I've not only taken several assembly line tours, but have had conversations with paint manufacturers reps telling me that orange peel is not only intentional, but measured and monitored. There are actually tools that are used to measure it like this one for example: Orange Peel Meter wave-scan ROBOTIC - robotic system for automated appearance control at the line. - BYK

There's no way a car can be painted (by robot or by human) to be orange peel free. The only way to produce a flat finish is to sand and buff it.

In my opinion orange peel is serious but I think the problem with plastic bumpers not matching the metal body is a bigger crime. I know the cause is different substrates (as per all the paint mfgs) but they are really ugly colors out there.

The reason why bumpers (and all other trim) don't match the body isn't because of the substrate. It's because they are painted with different paint, different paint systems and are painted by vendors/suppliers in a totally different place from where the body is painted. The manufacturer gives them an acceptable variance to follow, but with some colors and where the variance falls on the scale can make the color to be way off.

 

[jfelbab]

Lexus actually wetsands their LS460 at the factory. One of the best looking factory paints I come across.



Lexus LS - Features & Pricing - Exterior

 

[Accumulator]

Orange Peel is 1000% INTENTIONAL!!



I've not only taken several assembly line tours, but have had conversations with paint manufacturers reps telling me that orange peel is not only intentional, but measured and monitored..

Wish Audi had "monitored" things a bit better when they painted my cars No way they intentionally decided to have orangepeel on one "D" pillar/etc. (i.e., sporadic). But OK, that was back when the robotic stuff was new so it's probably a whole different thing from what you're talking about and I'm just venting 'cause I recently cleaned up the S8 and noticed again how crappy its paint is.



The above rant aside, I'll take David's word for this.



Oh, and *OH YEAH!!* about the diffs in plastic trim vs. the body proper. On the Crown Vic its so bad it's simply obvious that they used a completely different paint, not even close to a match (I almost suspect it's a mistake since Ford has a bunch of different "white" paints). Best matches I have for bumper covers are the ones I've had redone.

 

[RaskyR1]

Orange Peel is 1000% INTENTIONAL!!



I've not only taken several assembly line tours, but have had conversations with paint manufacturers reps telling me that orange peel is not only intentional, but measured and monitored. There are actually tools that are used to measure it like this one for example: Orange Peel Meter wave-scan ROBOTIC - robotic system for automated appearance control at the line. - BYK

There's no way a car can be painted (by robot or by human) to be orange peel free. The only way to produce a flat finish is to sand and buff it.

Good to know David! :xyxthumbs





Cost is still a huge factor though, but maybe not so much with the orange peel itself.



I can't seem to find the article now as the link has changed, but someone else had done a lot of research in the past and talked with paint manufactures about the whole process. It stated they know exactly what to do to the paint to give the desired results they wanted (gloss, scratch resistance, texture...) each manufacture has their own requirements, and the stricter they were the more the price went up. Most give up a certain characteristic in favor of another.



I know their not 100% free of orange peel, but I'm sure you've seen some very smooth paint jobs done by some well skilled painters before too.

 

[Kean]

It may be a matter of semantics, but after hearing some of these explanations it sounds (to me) like orange peel (to some degree) is simply a “side-effect” of the process and that manufacturers try to control the level of these types of characteristics within a measurable limit they consider acceptable. …. balancing cost, efficiency, etc. with some level of QC to produce the desired finished product. When someone says “intentional”, I envision a manufacturer deliberately adding an orange peel texture even though they have the ability to create a smooth finish (barring any increase in cost, loss of efficiency, etc.). In other words, if they had the ability to create a finish that was peel-free vs. one that wasn’t, do some of you folks think they would intentionally choose the latter for other reasons (perhaps like the OP stated)?

 

[Mike-in-Orange]

With that said, part of the reason of the intentional orange peel of the base paint (or the layers under the smooth clear in the event i'm mislabeling coats)

This is simply incorrect. The orange peel is in the clear too, not just in the color coat, or else it would be impossible to make the paint visually flat simply by sanding the clear coat. And sanding the clear coat will, indeed, make the paint look 100% totally flat (assuming of course there's enough clear to allow sanding flat, and that the operator has the skill to do so).

 

[Todd@RUPES]

This is simply incorrect. The orange peel is in the clear too, not just in the color coat, or else it would be impossible to make the paint visually flat simply by sanding the clear coat. And sanding the clear coat will, indeed, make the paint look 100% totally flat (assuming of course there's enough clear to allow sanding flat, and that the operator has the skill to do so).

Unless each individual coat is sanded level than every layer from the primer up to the final spray of clear has some texture in it. However think of an ocean on a clam day. The water looks flat even though the ground underneath is bumpy and riddled with terrain. If they could spray primer and base perfectly level than it could be done with the clear as well. Spraying fine particles in a wet slurry onto a surface= texture.



When you sand the clear level you are creating a smooth surface that will reflect fairly evenly but the clear will be thinner on the high spots of the base coat.

 

[Accumulator]

When you sand the clear level you are creating a smooth surface that will reflect fairly evenly but the clear will be thinner on the high spots of the base coat.

Good reason to resist the temptation to level it, huh?

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

lol perhaps I should have been clearer.

1) I meant to refer to cars straight out of the factory stock

2) I'm inclined (because I don't recall them making the distinction) to think that if the orange peel is on your clear then you more than likely just got a defective paint job.

3) if the peel is only in odd places, a accumulator alluded to, is a product of flawed engineering.



I merely intended to make reference to an en masse issue. Higher end cars I would generally preclude from this generality as well

 

[WAS]

Orange Peel is 1000% INTENTIONAL!!



I've not only taken several assembly line tours, but have had conversations with paint manufacturers reps telling me that orange peel is not only intentional, but measured and monitored. There are actually tools that are used to measure it like this one for example: Orange Peel Meter wave-scan ROBOTIC - robotic system for automated appearance control at the line. - BYK

There's no way a car can be painted (by robot or by human) to be orange peel free. The only way to produce a flat finish is to sand and buff it.

David, is this to mean that manufactures WANT orange peel, or simply that they don't want to have to sand and buff ? I can understand that keeping orange peel consistent would be important, but again, is this because manufactures simply want to cut out the sand and buff step ?

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

I'd be hard pressed to say that bottom line motive was not a factor, but that it certainly also had a justification beyond the profit motive. with the average car owner barely doing the bare minimum in the way of car maintenance, and the blatantly false claim that the new clear coat require nothing more than a wash ever, they'd have to minimize the amount of imperfections noticed by texturing the paint.



In pricing the extra money for perfected paint, the average consumer would be turned off by the incremental price difference.

The actual difference would be lost on them anyhow ; if anything they would be irritated by the fact that they pay a premium for flaw exaggerating paint, whereas this texturing beguiles the consumer that the car is in better condition than it is

 

[WAS]

Alex: I'm not totally convinced yet that manufactures put orange peel into paint on purpose, for the reasons of hiding imperfections. I can understand manufactures living with it because of the skipping of sanding / buffing (consequential time and cost savings), I can understand manufactures wanting to at least have uniformity with it (hence the machinery David linked us to), but I still have a hard time believing that it's done 100% on purpose with intent. Given the option between orange peel and no orange peel (for argument's sake, say the price is identical), I still think manufactures would opt for without.

 

[454Casull]

Sorry, what kind of imperfections is orange peel supposed to hide? Orange peel is the last thing you notice on a finish.

 

[mikenap]

2) I'm inclined (because I don't recall them making the distinction) to think that if the orange peel is on your clear then you more than likely just got a defective paint job.

I think maybe you skimmed through some of the replies earlier. Orange peel is most definitely in the clearcoat as well. The orange peel in the basecoat is harder to notice because the top layer of clear fills in the valleys underneath. But the peel in the clear is what everyone sees, and why every week you see 147 new posts asking whether or not to sand their factory paint in order to reduce the OP.

 

[gigondaz]

I actually have a buddy who told me that he likes the way orange peel looks when they car is washed and clean. Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

What an unusually different reply!!:har:...sounds funny, but makes perfect sense to me.

Some non-enthusiast Germans have told me the same thing before...that the "waviness" (OP to us) looks nice!

I wonder what they think of American beer??:chuckle:



WAS was also spot-on.

Many mftrs don't look at OP as a problem. It's a way of life and so common. Why bother to look into a problem that no one complains about?? The point is to produce the car as quickly as possible while meeting their self-imposed standards and cost targets.

 

[David Fermani]

Lexus actually wetsands their LS460 at the factory. One of the best looking factory paints I come across.



Lexus LS - Features & Pricing - Exterior

From that link you posted:

The sides of the LS are wet-sanded by hand during the paint application process. Wet-sanding removes imperfections in the paint's surface so the result is a smoother, more lustrous finish. This process is rarely performed on production vehicles.

Don't know why they say the paint application process? Unless they are sanding in-between coats which is the best way to have a flat finish.

Good to know David! :xyxthumbs





Cost is still a huge factor though, but maybe not so much with the orange peel itself.



I can't seem to find the article now as the link has changed, but someone else had done a lot of research in the past and talked with paint manufactures about the whole process. It stated they know exactly what to do to the paint to give the desired results they wanted (gloss, scratch resistance, texture...) each manufacture has their own requirements, and the stricter they were the more the price went up. Most give up a certain characteristic in favor of another.



I know their not 100% free of orange peel, but I'm sure you've seen some very smooth paint jobs done by some well skilled painters before too.

Sure have, but like I mentioned above,(and as you certainly know), it's better to have a flat base instead of applying an additional coat of clear to sand flatter. As far as manufacturers having their own recipe for OP, yes they sure do. It's based on the car. There are cars and trucks produced at the same assembly plant that use the same paint line, but the OP is different.

It may be a matter of semantics, but after hearing some of these explanations it sounds (to me) like orange peel (to some degree) is simply a “side-effect” of the process and that manufacturers try to control the level of these types of characteristics within a measurable limit they consider acceptable. …. balancing cost, efficiency, etc. with some level of QC to produce the desired finished product. When someone says “intentional”, I envision a manufacturer deliberately adding an orange peel texture even though they have the ability to create a smooth finish (barring any increase in cost, loss of efficiency, etc.). In other words, if they had the ability to create a finish that was peel-free vs. one that wasn’t, do some of you folks think they would intentionally choose the latter for other reasons (perhaps like the OP stated)?

I totally agree with you on your statement, but not on them having the ability to produce an OP-free finish. Do they deliberately add OP....Yes, but like I mentioned it's in a controlled setting that is measured. More customers would complain that there's a difference in finish on their car over it totally being peely. People just don't recognize those things.

David, is this to mean that manufactures WANT orange peel, or simply that they don't want to have to sand and buff ? I can understand that keeping orange peel consistent would be important, but again, is this because manufactures simply want to cut out the sand and buff step ?

Alex: I'm not totally convinced yet that manufactures put orange peel into paint on purpose, for the reasons of hiding imperfections. I can understand manufactures living with it because of the skipping of sanding / buffing (consequential time and cost savings), I can understand manufactures wanting to at least have uniformity with it (hence the machinery David linked us to), but I still have a hard time believing that it's done 100% on purpose with intent. Given the option between orange peel and no orange peel (for argument's sake, say the price is identical), I still think manufactures would opt for without.

Do they want OP...I believe yes. It's does hide panel rippling and spot welds that are natural to the manufacturing process. Imagine a black H2 Hummer or a Ford truck with a totally flat finish. You'd see way for stamping flaws. OP conceals it. Doing PDR on a Bentley/Rolls is alot harder than a Hummer. Also, I truly believe that a OP'd finish is more durable seeing that there's less surface contact being made. I'd be willing to bet that a if you took a Rolls and a Hummer through 100 automatic car washes that the Rolls (baring that the paint is softer) would appear much worse.

Many mftrs don't look at OP as a problem. It's a way of life and so common. Why bother to look into a problem that no one complains about?? The point is to produce the car as quickly as possible while meeting their self-imposed standards and cost targets.

Right about not too many people complaining about it and producing a car efficiently/effectively. Removing OP for a manufacturer is a huge undertaking with quite a bit of risk for not that great of a return. Do these high-end hand produced exotics/luxo's need to have totally flat finishes?

 

[Tiger-Heli]

Notwithstanding the concours show car comment earlier, I thought this thread was a bit ironic ...



When I was growing up in the 80's and 90's, you looked for OP on USED cars as a sign that the car had been repainted and possibly damaged in an accident (quality control was better at the assembly line).



A few years ago, I saw a NEW car on the lot with significant OP. Looks like now quality control is better at the body shops than the assembly line and LACK OF OP might be a sign that the car has been repaired (or just VERY well-maintained).



Couldn't help commenting on the reversal ...