Sheeting vs. beading

If you are planning to sell your used car and the potential buyer requests that he/she takes it to their mechanic, at their expense to be checked out; should you pay for the normal wear and tear that their mechanic points out. Lets assume the car wasn't dogged, service receipts are available, and the auto' s engine and transmission is in excellent condition, along with the body and interior. What is your opinion?
 
no don't pay for it.

you are not selling the car at the price you bought it for. I am sure you looked up the price of the car and what it is worth with the miles that are on it. You value of the car already has the deductions for wear & tear. If you have the receipts of all the mechanic work done, then that is just a plus in your pocket and should be used when you go to sell the car.
 
Well if its just a very minimal cost, I'd probably just say well lets just deduct $100 bucks or $200. This especially holds true if its either tires or brakes. In general, however, when you sell a used car, I honestly feel that you're selling it AS IS. This is assuming that it is in good running order.
 
If you are selling a car that is totally fixed and needs no service, then you can ask top dollar like a used car lot. Those cars are warranteed at least 30 days usually. However, I expect that you are not asking the "retail" price for the car and this is where things that need to be fixed come into play.



example: I'm selling my '79 Mercedes that needs some work - not a lot but some work. If I dumped, say, $1500 into it to make it run like it did in 1979, then I would ask A LOT more for the car. The buyer gets it as is and then he can decide what to fix and get a much lower price than a "perfect" car.
 
It really depends on what kind of car you're selling, who the potential buyers are, and what the market place expects for a car like that.



Every used car buyer expects *some* things to be worn out or not working 100%. People want cars inspected to give them an insight to any major problems with a potential purchase. It's not reasonable for a buyer to expect everything to be working like new.



But sometimes a car can be almost impossible to sell if certain systems of the car aren't working. Like air conditioning or brakes. No matter how cheap your car is, it may be all but unsellable if they don't work properly. The upshot is that if you have that work done, you can use it as a selling tool.



If most cars like yours are in similar condition for a similar price then it's not critical to do additional work. But if the market is selling cars like yours that are in much better condition you have to expect that buyer will spend more for those cars unless they can steal yours. This is really common at exotic/classic car auctions. Cars that have not been detailed or just slapped together do not sell or sell for super low prices. But if an owner went to the trouble of taking care of the little things prior to sale then the chances of a car selling for a good price go up. It's kind of a game of odds, if you get my meaning.



Just apply a little common sense and you'll be OK. Good luck.
 
Posted this elsewhere as well, but I thought I'd see what some of my newest bretheren think about this...


1) What is the more preferential action of an LSP between the two?

2) How does a manufacturer design a product to sheet instead of bead?

Give me the benefit of the doubt here that I know why water would bead on a surface. I am looking to see how different an wax or sealant would have to be designed to make it sheet water. Is that totally a function of how the water is applied to the surface? For example, a light drizzle would seem to bead no matter what as would a flood rinse tend to sheet water.

Is sheeting and/or beading a characteristic built into the LSP? And how, exactly? (Without revealing proprietary info of course).
 
I've never understood the fascination with beading???

I want my wax/sealant to sheet the water away....if there is such a wax someone please list it for me! :)

....and I'm not talking about sheeting with the garden hose.


Beeding = water spots!!!
 
....if there is such a wax someone please list it for me! :)

....

Well, one of the reasons I thought to bring this up was that I've seen several comments in regards to Autoglym HD Wax's sheeting properties. I also saw this claim (and somewhat experienced it myself to a limited extent) back when NXT was the new thing grabbing all the bandwaggoners.

Haven't used the Autoglym, but it has got me wonderin'....
 
Well, one of the reasons I thought to bring this up was that I've seen several comments in regards to Autoglym HD Wax's sheeting properties. I also saw this claim (and somewhat experienced it myself to a limited extent) back when NXT was the new thing grabbing all the bandwaggoners.

Haven't used the Autoglym, but it has got me wonderin'....

I've not used Autoglym either....

I think Mike P commented on this whole thing a while back....I'll see if I can dig it up. :)
 
I tried Autoglym, and I think it definitely sheets better than any product I've used. But, I want the mack-daddy teflon coating that water runs down and couldn't stick no matter what!
 
In my opinion, there are two distinct types of "sheeting".

One is the sheeting that occurs, no matter how the water is applied to the vehicle, which indicates there is no sealant, wax or protection of any kind on the paint.

The other is forced by the method of applying the water to the surface, on well sealed/waxed paint.

IMO, the tighter the beads, say in a light rain, the better protection is on the paint. Beads that are "standing proud" tell me that the car has plenty of wax or sealant on it.

On the other hand, when protection is starting to wear thin, the beads (of the same light rain) seem to spread out until they finally begin to all run together, when all protection is gone.

I think it's just one of the charactistics of sealant and wax, that it beads water.

Sheeting CAN occur on a freshly waxed surface, by the "flooding" of water onto the paint. It will run off quickly, making it very easy to dry... because there are no BEADS!
 
Remembered reading about hydrophobic (fear of water) and hydrophilic (loves water) which applies to those true nano products.

Where's Jon? :D


My preference, beading while it may look cool, sheeting is what I want. I have a personal vendetta with water spots. LOL
 
I like the look of a tight bead pattern. It lets me know there is wax there. Also if the water is beading the water will run off when the car is moving. On the other hand I guess beading can hold water on a still car. If hard water sits long enoug it sould harm the wax or paint.


My preference, beading while it may look cool, sheeting is what I want. I have a personal vendetta with water spots. LOL

:iagree:




:White Horse:
 
Regarding beading and the presence of wax: I have personally seen a fresh paint job (literally fresh out of the booth) polished by me (to remove buffer trails, of course) and followed by an IPA wipedown and Dawn wash bead like crazy. In effect, there should have been nothing on the paint with regards to wax/sealant that would have aided in beading.

I think beading can be a case of tight surface tension, in this instance the new surface of the paint. While not applicable on older cars most likely, at least in this case I was beading pretty with no kind of LSP on the paint surface.

In the instance of judging how much life I have left in any kind of sealant, I will factor in beading (among other visual and perception indicators) if I know how the product tends to bead water when freshly applied.

Thoughts?
 
Water beading

[: convex beads that have a small, tight symmetrical shape due to cohesion]

Although you cannot equate a products beading ability to protection and durability, if an applied product continues to `bead' water, one wash after another, then that would prove that whatever it is that is causing high surface tension is not washing off.

How can you tell when a paint surface protection has diminished to a point that it is no longer being protected?

Scientific explanation

? Water (H2O) is a polar molecule, composed of two hydrogen (H2) atoms bonded to a single oxygen (O2) atom. Water molecules adhere to each other, this is called cohesion.
? Water molecules also can be attracted to other substances, such as metal or dirt, especially if they have some static charge on them, this is called adhesion.
? Some substances are not attracted to water, and even repel it. These include oils, fats and waxes; these are called non-polar substances.
? When water falls on an un-waxed paint surface, the forces of adhesion and cohesion are almost in equilibrium, and the water spreads out

A wax or sealant, when applied properly to a clean paint surface, fills in the larger surface fissures and layers the whole surface. The chemical structure of the wax prevents water from penetrating to the surface of the car. Because the wax itself is hydrophobic (literally repels water), the forces of adhesion are much less than the forces of cohesion. So, water is more likely to bead higher and rounder than on a surface without wax / sealant

Non-scientific explanation
a) If the paint surface feels dry (your hand or a cloth drags), it?s an indication that there?s nothing left between you and the paint finish. Glazes, waxes and polymer?s create a finish with less friction (surface tension) than the paint itself.
b) A suggestion from a polymer product manufacturer [To test your wax / sealant you must measure the water beading of your paint (height, contact angle and diameter) without any polish/wax applied Next, measure the water beading of your paint (height, contact angle and diameter) within 24 hours after initially applying your polish/wax. This is your starting point. This will also be the gauge for determining the water beading (longevity, duration and changes) for that specific product. As the water beads start to diminish (get wider and shallower and loses contact angle), the polish/wax and its film protection factor is going away, Once the water beading is the same as before you apply your product, the polish/wax and its protection are gone] [Sal Zaino]

Conclusion- water beading is indicative but not conclusive proof of protection

Note - durability can fluctuate dependent upon environmental conditions and the products used between waxing/sealing (quick detailer (QD) car wash concentrate that contains a wax, spray wax, etc)

c) Indications that the products durability may be diminishing- (contact angle varies) when the water beads become noticeably larger in diameter with a flat, concave or an irregular shape usually indicate that the surface tension of the wax or sealant is diminishing. Or when dust, dirt or bug residue becomes more difficult to wipe off with a quick detailing spray are indications that it may be time to renew the protection

d) Slickness- slide a micro fibre towel across a horizontal surface to see how much resistance there is, if there has been a significant reduction from what you experienced previously the durability is probably diminishing

e) Sheeting or water beading- the self cleaning (sheeting) ability of the hydrophilic polymer seems to be much better than the hydrophobic organic wax (beading) effect, as it may accelerate the oxidation when drying after rain.

There are some disadvantages to water beading (hydrophobic) as opposed to the sheeting effect (hydrophilic) of a polymer, when they are dried by ambient temperature they cause ?spotting? (if the rain contains calcium it will leave a white residue) The other is there could be over a pint of liquid trapped within the beads over the paint film surface area, if they contain acid from industrial fall out (IFO) this could increase the time the acidic solution remains on the paint surface compared to ?water sheeting?.

The beads have a very small surface area, so the sun will increase the surface temperature very rapidly; many chemical compounds react to slight heating and an oxidizing process. Now you have acid + water + oxygen + ozone + heat; all of which equates to a highly concentrated acidic solution, which causes a concave indentation (acid etching) to the paint surface

Any product can be reformulated by a Chemist or product formulator with active surface agents (surfactants) either ionic (?sheeting?) or non-ionic (?beading?) that alters the surface tension and causes water to ?sheet? or ?bead? to satisfy consumer demand. But if a product beads on initial application and after a period of time starts to sheet water (or vice-versa) it is normally indicative that the wax/sealant protection has diminished.

Note- Dust and road soil will also have a negative impact on ?water beading?. This is often mistaken as ?wax / sealant failure

Contact Angle

[: the angle at which a liquid/vapour interface meets the solid surface].

[The contact angle is specific for any given system and is determined by the interactions across the three interfaces. Consider a liquid drop on a solid surface. If the liquid is very strongly attracted to the solid surface (for example water on a strongly hydrophilic solid) the droplet will completely spread out on the solid surface and the contact angle will be close to 0?.

Less strongly hydrophilic solids will have a contact angle up to 90?. On many highly hydrophilic surfaces, water droplets will exhibit contact angles of 0? to 30?. If the solid surface is hydrophobic, the contact angle will be larger than 90?. On highly hydrophobic surfaces the surfaces have water contact angles as high as 150? or even nearly 180?. On these surfaces, water droplets simply rest on the surface, without actually wetting to any significant extent.] [1]


An extract from one of a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet

Chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these; although these articles will not improve your detailing skills, lead to a successful business or change your life. Applying what you learn from it, however, will. That's where your commitment comes in - you need to make a commitment to yourself right now that you will take action on what you learn.


? TOGWT ? Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved
 
Regarding beading and the presence of wax: I have personally seen a fresh paint job (literally fresh out of the booth) polished by me (to remove buffer trails, of course) and followed by an IPA wipedown and Dawn wash bead like crazy. In effect, there should have been nothing on the paint with regards to wax/sealant that would have aided in beading.



:yawn: How on earth do you have buffer trails fresh out of the paint booth?

IPA and Dawn, I'm not seeing a bead. You've got a magic polisher. :toetap05:








:White Horse:
 
:yawn: How on earth do you have buffer trails fresh out of the paint booth?

Polish guy was apparently bad with a rotary.

IPA and Dawn, I'm not seeing a bead. You've got a magic polisher. :toetap05:








:White Horse:

All I can tell you is what I've seen. I've seen other fresh painted vehicles bead too, although I can't vouch for the validity of what had been used to polish and if it might have had some sort of fillers in the polish that would help it bead. I've also seen friends and family's vehicles bead after long periods with no wax or other attention. All I'm saying is that beading is not necessarily a function wax alone - I've seen things with no wax bead (like my lawn tractor, for instance).
 
[Regarding beading and the presence of wax: I have personally seen a fresh paint job (literally fresh out of the booth) polished by me (to remove buffer trails, of course) and followed by an IPA wipedown and Dawn wash bead like crazy. In effect, there should have been nothing on the paint with regards to wax/sealant that would have aided in beading.]

This is due to surface tension.

Surface tension

[: is an attractive property of the surface of a liquid. It is what causes the surface portion of liquid to be attracted to another surface, such as that of another portion of liquid (as in connecting bits of water or as in a drop of mercury that forms a cohesive ball] [1]

Water has a property called surface tension; it?s caused by the attraction between the molecules of the liquid, due to various inter covalent forces. In the bulk of the liquid each molecule is pulled equally in all directions by neighbouring liquid molecules, resulting in a net force of zero.

This tension causes water to bead up on surfaces, you can see surface tension at work by placing a drop of water onto a clean surface that has no wax / sealant, and the water drop (dependent upon contact angle) will hold its shape and will not spread. Surface tension can be compromised mechanically by dirt breaching the sphere and causing it to lose its shape; this does not necessarily mean that the surface protection has diminished.
 
Remember that old late night info-mercial with the guy showing the latest space age product that sheeted like magic? I do, just can't recall what the name was. Probably snake oil anyway.
 
Polish guy was apparently bad with a rotary.

Oh, I thought the car was fresh from the paint booth. If it had been polished that would make sense.


.......polish and if it might have had some sort of fillers in the polish that would help it bead.

Ya, but wouldn't IPA and dawn get rid of the fillers?

At any rate, I know there are things that can make water bead. Any oily product will do it. I knew a guy that would rub a car with WD-40 before selling it. I guess the oils made the paint shine. And "WD" means water displacement. Talk about a shiester! I am not recommending this!!! We have enough really good products to use without cheating!!!!!!






:White Horse:
 
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