Sal Zaino on Carnauba wax

Accumulator said:
Anybody who's used Collinite, #16, 3M Showcar Paste Wax, or Malm's Liquid, just to name some that I know about first-hand from use over extended periods, knows that (at least some) carnaubas work a lot better than some people might like us to think.
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Collinite 915 lasts like crazy, one car I used it on 6 months ago and just washed again last week, it beaded when I sprayed it with the hose and it came clean with one swipe of a sheepskin after being driven as a daily driver the entire winter (New Jersey salt and everything!!) never garaged.



It would appear, that when making judgments about the durability of carnaubas, most zaino users have never tried a collinite paste.
 
ebpcivicsi said:
Man, I didn't read the thread, but I knew that is Zaino and Carnauba were both mentioned then it was good for 7+ pages.



Who cares? I like the trade secret oils, I like the look of Zaino. As long as you "know the rules" when you are applying, it doesn't matter. By rules, I mean expectations--use a product, learn what to expect from it, and use it accordingly to meet your needs/goals.



I would rather we all talk about prep, then everyone could use whatever LSP best-suited their needs, goals, and expectations.





FWIW, yesterday I applied some #7, #26, and then #16 to perfectly prepped paint. Why? Because my customer likes the rich, warm look of the Meguiars TS oils. Today I will apply some Z5 PRO to perfectly prepped paint. Why? Because it fits my customers needs/goals.
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This is the best advice I have ever heard on Autopia yet! You are a true pro!:up
 
I just read this whole thread......I can't believer all the "pro's" out there that are wanting to use oily products that will only temporarily fill and hide defects which is why Carnauba's give that "warm" look.



My plan of attack is not in the LSP but in the prep work, once I polish out all the swirls and defects in the paint I need absolutely nothing to enhance the look or make it feel more "warm", at that point, I use what gives the best durability to protect the new finish.



If looks are all that matter, then why aren't most of us taking the time to polish out all the defects instead of using cheaters to temporarily make it look like something it's not?



Josh
 
From reading the article, it seemed to me as if Sal was saying that Carnuaba by itself is hazy and greasy which is why companies add the "snake oils" to give it a warmth and depth that the pure wax itself just doesn't have.



I've seen that little test before and yes it is objective, but it's also very very ignorant. The tester seems to know nothing about the products he's using or the way to use them and prep for them as well as he stated that Gold Class is not a Nuba when in fact it is a Nuba based wax.



That whole study is pretty irrelevant as it's two totally different products designed for two totally different reasons with different results.



Nuba's will always look better then sythetics and sythetics will always last longer then nuba's, which is why prep work is the #1 key. Make the paint look perfect first then sythetics will look better then nuba's and last longer.



Josh
 
JoshVette said:
I just read this whole thread......I can't believer all the "pro's" out there that are wanting to use oily products that will only temporarily fill and hide defects which is why Carnauba's give that "warm" look.
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Carnaubas don't hide defects well. I use carnaubas because especially on solid colors (non metallics), they flat look better than any sealant I have used. At least around here, they also give 3-5 months protection...and protect against bird bombs better than sealants.
 
JoshVette said:
Nuba's will always look better then sythetics and sythetics will always last longer then nuba's, which is why prep work is the #1 key. Make the paint look perfect first then sythetics will look better then nuba's and last longer.



Josh
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In your first sentence you say 'nubas will always look better than synthetics. Then, you reverse that logic in your final sentence.



Bottom line is it all comes down to personal preference. On any perfectly polished paint surface, I feel that 'nuba will give a "warmer/wetter" look, and that a synthetic will give you a more "mirror" look.



I switch between 'nubas and synthetics throughout the year, depending on the season/weather.
 
MoreBoostPlease said:
In your first sentence you say 'nubas will always look better than synthetics. Then, you reverse that logic in your final sentence.



Bottom line is it all comes down to personal preference. On any perfectly polished paint surface, I feel that 'nuba will give a "warmer/wetter" look, and that a synthetic will give you a more "mirror" look.



I switch between 'nubas and synthetics throughout the year, depending on the season/weather.
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I did not contradict myself, I think based on the quote you quoted you could figure out I was refering to a none polished car with a nuba and sythetic, with the nuba looking better as compared to a fully polished and perfected paint with a nuba and sythetic.



But you are also right when it does come down to what a person's looking for in the finish. My clients don't ask me if it will look warm and inviting when I'm done, after explaining prep work and it's importance they know when I'm finished they will have perfect paint that will give them all the characteristics of a warm, wet, mirror perfect shine.
 
JoshVette said:
I did not contradict myself, I think based on the quote you quoted you could figure out I was refering to a none polished car with a nuba and sythetic, with the nuba looking better as compared to a fully polished and perfected paint with a nuba and sythetic.
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I'm not going to get in a pissing contest, but yes, based on what you wrote, you contradicted yourself.

I don't believe 'nubas hide imperfections well at all, although I will say that on less than perfect paint a sythetic will tend to highlight those imperfections more.



I do think that most people on this site realize that how well a vehicle looks relies heavily on how well the paint has been polished, and not simply what is used to cover up.
 
JoshVette said:
I just read this whole thread......I can't believer all the "pro's" out there that are wanting to use oily products that will only temporarily fill and hide defects which is why Carnauba's give that "warm" look.



My plan of attack is not in the LSP but in the prep work, once I polish out all the swirls and defects in the paint I need absolutely nothing to enhance the look or make it feel more "warm", at that point, I use what gives the best durability to protect the new finish.



If looks are all that matter, then why aren't most of us taking the time to polish out all the defects instead of using cheaters to temporarily make it look like something it's not?



Josh
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Well...I only see a problem with pro's using these "oily filler products" if they are using them to hide defects, that they are telling the customer they have corrected (to cut corners). However, if a car has been correctly prepped, and the "oily filler products" aid in achieving depth and wetness, I see no problem with using them.



It would stand to reason that if you put an oily glaze on a non-prepped surface, and it improved the looks a lot, it would REALLY make a properly prepped surface pop.



This stuff is so subjective - how can you fault a person for liking the look of a glaze / nuba versus a sealant? As long as the prep has been done correctly, the glze / wax / sealant is just icing on the cake.
 
Scottwax said:
Carnaubas don't hide defects well. I use carnaubas because especially on solid colors (non metallics), they flat look better than any sealant I have used. At least around here, they also give 3-5 months protection...and protect against bird bombs better than sealants.
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Scott, I have to respectfully disagree with this statement.



Which carnauba's are you finding that give 3-5 months durability?



....and carnauba's DO help to hide defects, maybe not as well as a glaze, but they still cover up, I know this from years of personal experience.



So what do you use on your personal vehicle?



Nasty rain today, good thing I've got a sweet black NSX sitting in my garage waiting to get polished out. I'll be back later today.:waxing:
 
JoshVette said:
But you are also right when it does come down to what a person's looking for in the finish. My clients don't ask me if it will look warm and inviting when I'm done, after explaining prep work and it's importance they know when I'm finished they will have perfect paint that will give them all the characteristics of a warm, wet, mirror perfect shine.
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I agree. It's a very small percentage of car owners who notice the differences between lsp's.
 
weekendwarrior said:
Well...I only see a problem with pro's using these "oily filler products" if they are using them to hide defects, that they are telling the customer they have corrected (to cut corners). However, if a car has been correctly prepped, and the "oily filler products" aid in achieving depth and wetness, I see no problem with using them.



It would stand to reason that if you put an oily glaze on a non-prepped surface, and it improved the looks a lot, it would REALLY make a properly prepped surface pop.



This stuff is so subjective - how can you fault a person for liking the look of a glaze / nuba versus a sealant? As long as the prep has been done correctly, the glze / wax / sealant is just icing on the cake.
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I understand what you're sazing, but what I'm trying to get accross is on a properly preped surface there should be no real swirls or defects to glaze over so there won't be any real enhancing other then in one's mind??
 
JoshVette said:
I understand what you're sazing, but what I'm trying to get accross is on a properly preped surface there should be no real swirls or defects to glaze over so there won't be any real enhancing other then in one's mind??
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Actually, what I am saying is that on a properly prepped surface, the glaze wouldn't be used to "glaze over defects", because there wouldn't be any. The point of the glaze would be an optical enhancement. Some glazes (like Meg's #7) tend to darken the paint. Again, I am saying glazes can be used in this type capacity also - not just to mask defects.
 
JoshVette said:
I understand what you're sazing, but what I'm trying to get accross is on a properly preped surface there should be no real swirls or defects to glaze over so there won't be any real enhancing other then in one's mind??
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Glazes add optical improvements to a perfect finish. Some may also fill but ALL improve the look before sealing it in with a LSP. Some are wet (eg, #7, RMG), some are dry (eg, DWG).



To say glazes and carnaubas don't add anything worthwhile or lack durability suggests a gap in your detailing education. Learn from some of the more experienced pros on this forum.



And don't forget, as good as Zaino products may be, Sal is always pushing his own barrow.
 
JoshVette said:
Which carnauba's are you finding that give 3-5 months durability?
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I get that with Meg's #16 (around three months) and from Collinite 845 and (especially) 476S (well over five months if I initially layer). That's on year-round daily drivers.



....and carnauba's DO help to hide defects, maybe not as well as a glaze, but they still cover up, I know this from years of personal experience...
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Yeah, I get a little concealing, especially with the heavier carnuabas.



........I can't believer all the "pro's" out there that are wanting to use oily products that will only temporarily fill and hide defects...My plan of attack is..[to]..polish out all the swirls and defects in the paint..
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I'll play devil's advocate here just for the sake of discussion (hoping we can, if necessary agree to disagree without any contentious :argue ):



I have a few vehicles that can't stand any additional abrasive polishing; whether it's me doing the work or anybody else, trying to correct the finish would lead to disaster...a repaint that would utterly ruin the priceless originality. As I often say "better imperfect original paint than a perfect repaint".



Even on the M3 (no concerns about originality), I aimed for ~90% correction and ended up taking off too much clear before I got there. (Yeah, shoulda bought my ETG before I started :o Live and learn.. ). I'd rather still have marring than pay to have a few panels reshot, which is what I have to do now.



Also, *as long as the customer knows what's being done*, if Mr./Mrs. Average Customer is just gonna mar the paint up again, how often can you keep correcting it? If the customer washes/etc. properly, OK, no problem. But everybody I know who pays for details promptly treats the vehicle badly (carwashes, etc.) and if they had 0.10 mil polished off every few months they'd be out of clear in no time (and they'd be POed about it). Better that their vehicles "just look good" until they need detailed again, whereupon they once again look good for another few months. I felt this way back when I did cars for family and friends; they were happy and I never had to worry about running out of clear. They knew how I was approaching things and nobody thought there was any "cheating" involved.



I agree about not "cheating" by hiding defects that people think are really gone, but IMO there are times when it's not cheating, but rather just doing the right thing.
 
Alfisti said:
Glazes add optical improvements to a perfect finish. Some may also fill but ALL improve the look before sealing it in with a LSP. Some are wet (eg, #7, RMG), some are dry (eg, DWG).



To say glazes and carnaubas don't add anything worthwhile or lack durability suggests a gap in your detailing education. Learn from some of the more experienced pros on this forum.



And don't forget, as good as Zaino products may be, Sal is always pushing his own barrow.
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Get off it already, you don't even know me......:spit:



I never said glazes and carnaubas don't add anything, they add plenty........of oils and fillers..... but you're putting words in my mouth, and yes they do lack durability compared to many other products.



I do learn alot from the more experience and qualified detailers around (how few they are) and they don't seem to use glazes either.:grinno:



Maybe I have a gap in my education, but I must be doing something right for clients to pay me thousands to make their car perfect......or maybe my clients are just stupid for paying so much for someone so inexperienced.:grinno:



I did not get the impression that Sal was "pushing" his line, he was simply responding to an article with information about carnauba products, not trying to get everyone to buy his product.



Josh
 
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