Sal Zaino on Carnauba wax

[imported_JoshVette]

Accumulator, I understand what you're saying about glazes, but those kinds of cars are the very rare exception.



Also, I highly educate my clientele on car care and washing techniques, I even give them a page with a simple two bucket wash, leaf blow drying and MF towel write up so they can properly care for there vehicle and not have a costly $600-$800 process done every 8-12 months. I know I loose a little money in the long run, but I see it as if I will gain there loyalty for caring more about there car then about my own income. I'm doing well enough with this approach.



I even had a client ask if I thought 10 coats of Zaino was enough or just 5 knowing that I charge an extra $20 per application. I told him 5 would be plenty for the 6-9 months till I do it again. The same client wanted me to do a $1000 dollar show car polish job once a year and I told him, yes the first time will probably cost that much, do to paying by the hour and time it takes, but once it's restored if he properly keeps it, it should still be in good shape next year and only cost maybe $400 or so next time around. You might think I just lost $600 bucks, but I'll bet he appreciates my honesty a lot more then trying to make an extra buck off him.



I will never need money bad enough to be dishonest with someone.



Josh

 

[Alfisti]

Get off it already, you don't even know me......:spit:

Don't need to know you...just what you've publicly state on this forum.

I never said glazes and carnaubas don't add anything, they add plenty........of oils and fillers..... but you're putting words in my mouth, and yes they do lack durability compared to many other products.

I said OPTICAL IMPROVEMENTS. As far as durability goes, some sealants have poor durability, some carnaubas have great durability. Can't generalize.

I do learn alot from the more experience and qualified detailers around (how few they are) and they don't seem to use glazes either.:grinno:

Sorry...some do. And, by the way, it's condescending and arrogant to claim that there a 'few' qualified detailers here.

Maybe I have a gap in my education, but I must be doing something right for clients to pay me thousands to make their car perfect......or maybe my clients are just stupid for paying so much for someone so inexperienced.:grinno:

Can't comment about that...just your published opinions.

I did not get the impression that Sal was "pushing" his line, he was simply responding to an article with information about carnauba products, not trying to get everyone to buy his product.

So he sells carnaubas does he?

 

[imported_JoshVette]

Can't generalize.



Sorry...some do. And, by the way, it's condescending and arrogant to claim that there a 'few' qualified detailers here.

Well for someone who can't generalize, you've sure done plenty about me.



I'm not being arrogant or condescending (another generalization by you), I've simply found that out of the thousands and thousands of detailers around there are only a very few that perform on the highest level and those are the one's I try to learn from.:bigups



Josh:tribe:

 

[Alfisti]

Well for someone who can't generalize, you've sure done plenty about me.

Nope...just specifics on your published comments.

I'm not being arrogant or condescending (another generalization by you), I've simply found that out of the thousands and thousands of detailers around there are only a very few that perform on the highest level and those are the one's I try to learn from.

Then learn from the ones who have bothered to respond to your comments.

 

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

No disrepect D&D not your intentions I am sure!

 

[mrfjsw294]

No disrepect D&D not your intentions I am sure!

Agreed. The first few pages were ok...it was rather educational. Now it has turned into nothing more than a pissing contest that is off-topic.

 

[NSXTASY]

Motorcity, for someone who asserts that this thread adds little or no value, you sure aren't helping to steer it back. Status Quo.



Sal sells sealants. In the article he addresses the areas where he feels carnauba falls short and implies how his product meets these shortcomings.



The claims he made will be difficult to validate by anyone who uses a decent carnauba wax.



It's simple marketing.

 

[David Fermani]

Also, *as long as the customer knows what's being done*, if Mr./Mrs. Average Customer is just gonna mar the paint up again, how often can you keep correcting it? If the customer washes/etc. properly, OK, no problem. But everybody I know who pays for details promptly treats the vehicle badly (carwashes, etc.) and if they had 0.10 mil polished off every few months they'd be out of clear in no time (and they'd be POed about it). Better that their vehicles "just look good" until they need detailed again, whereupon they once again look good for another few months. I felt this way back when I did cars for family and friends; they were happy and I never had to worry about running out of clear. They knew how I was approaching things and nobody thought there was any "cheating" involved.



I agree about not "cheating" by hiding defects that people think are really gone, but IMO there are times when it's not cheating, but rather just doing the right thing.

Amen. Great information here^^^^^

How many times can you chase "perfection" on a vehicle that isn't maintained properly in the 1st place? There's gonna be a time when detailers will be paying all that correction money back when they light the candle from both ends and burn through clear or unknowingly remove the scratch resistant layer on ceramics. I'll take using a glaze/sealant approach (after a proper correction) every 3-4 months over the repetitive abrasive one any day.

 

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

Motorcity, for someone who asserts that this thread adds little or no value, you sure aren't helping to steer it back. Status Quo.

Dont even start on me.. what would you suggest I do start a petition that we all join hands and sing "Kumbaya"??? Are you trolling for me to start arguing with you???

 

[TigerMike]

Sal sells sealants. In the article he addresses the areas where he feels carnauba falls short and implies how his product meets these shortcomings.

Ditto. This could have been stated in the first reply and it would have been /thread.



Does anyone here think that Sal could NOT create a carnauba wax, if he wanted to. Of course he could, not rocket science! Just like NSX said, Sal sells sealants only because he was tired of the limitations placed by *most* ordinary carnauba waxes (but maybe not all), and feels (his) sealants overcome these shortcomings. And, I highly doubt his opinions on carnauba are directed at the guys already using stuff like 845IW (arguably not merely a simple 'nuba anyhow) and other non-ordinary carnaubas...



Is there a bit of marketing in there too? Absolutely! How many other companies use marketing to promote their products? Are we gonna fault companies for promoting the benefits of their products, compared to the competition? If so, I can think of a heck of a lot more to start with (with far more outlandish and borderline mistruths to sell their stuff) than Zaino! Paint breathing anyone?



Mike

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator, I understand what you're saying about glazes, but those kinds of cars [with thin original paint] are the very rare exception...

OK, that's fair enough. You know your clientele and I was just speaking from my personal experience. I'm so used to dealing with the thin-original-paint issue that it always comes to mind.

..Also, I highly educate my clientele on car care and washing techniques..

OK, gotcha...once again, you know your clientele and they sound very different from the people I know who patronize pros. You're lucky to have such customers (and to be able to, I suspect, be choosey with regard to what vehicles/customers you deal with), it'd be a shame for your work to be undone by carelessness. And lucky them, to have somebody who not only gets their vehicles nice but also teaches them how to keep 'em that way :xyxthumbs



Heh heh, I wish more people in my area cared enough to treat their vehicles properly!

 

[Scottwax]

Scott, I have to respectfully disagree with this statement.



Which carnauba's are you finding that give 3-5 months durability?



....and carnauba's DO help to hide defects, maybe not as well as a glaze, but they still cover up, I know this from years of personal experience.



So what do you use on your personal vehicle?



Nasty rain today, good thing I've got a sweet black NSX sitting in my garage waiting to get polished out. I'll be back later today.:waxing:

Meguiars #16, Carnauba Moose, Meguiars #26 all last at least 3 months for me, even through the summer on the black 626 I used to have.



I haven't noticed any particular swirl hiding capabilities with carnaubas and I base this on detailing full time for 14 years.



Lately, I've been switching between Carnauba Moose and Souveran on my Maxima. When I had my black 626, the longest I could stand the look of a sealant on it was 2 week before I'd go back to carnaubas.



I have an Escalade this afternoon but no hurry, the owner is out of town so I'm waiting until the rain lets up a bit.

 

[TortoiseAWD]

Dont even start on me.. what would you suggest I do start a petition that we all join hands and sing "Kumbaya"??? Are you trolling for me to start arguing with you???

The picture, while amusing and (unfortunately) becoming more accurate by the moment, certainly wasn't helping to put things back on track, so I've deleted it.



Please, everyone, drop the personal crap and get back on topic. There's no need for it . . . it IS possible to have a disagreement without getting all snarky (even on the internet!).



Thanks,

Tort

(moderator)

 

[DETAILKING]

Ok, guys let's keep this debate healthy!



Wow, this thread brings back some memories, this topic was exhausted time and time again about 7 yrs ago on this forum. We had testing, testing, and more testing and I thought we all pretty much came to the same conclusion!



Anyhow, here are a few cut and pastes from the past of my take on carnubas from back in the day......they have their place in detailing, but they have a few drawbacks compared to the latest polymer technology.



UV protection......A carnuba offers little to no UV light protection. For indoor showcars or garaged weekenders this may be ok, but for outdoor daily drivers this simply won't cut it. Remember plants need UV light to live, if carnuba filtered UV light, the tree it comes from would cease to exsist.......



As far as adding UV inhibitors, In carnuba waxes, I believe that the oils (usually silicone in most products) in the product make it difficult to add the UV inhibitors. This was written about briefly by David in one of his car care articles.



"......The only true negative property of silicone is the difficulty of adding UV protection..............."



Carnuba Properties............Carnuba is hard and brittle in it's pure state. It is often melted and added into a companies formulation. Typical carnuba type waxes, only contain about 5-10% carnuba by volume. Any more than that, and it gets very difficult to work with (take zymol that needs to be applied with your hands so the heat melts the product to make it spread easier). It also does not add any more protection after a certain amount. When you see PURE CARNUBA, it means that the part of the wax that is carnuba is 100% pure. Every carnuba product must contain other waxes because carnuba in itself will not bead water! Polyethylene wax is popular, and most contain pariffin wax for water beading properties. Take a candle, for instance, that is pariffin wax. It is not clear, and neither is carnuba. Now picture shaving a very thin slice off. This can represent what is actually going on your car. Can you see through the slice? yes..... Is it 100% clear....no. This is what "tints" the color of your car. Older carnubas like KIT wax were notorious for creating a yellowing effect on white cars due to the type of carnuba they used.





Silicone Oil.......Carnuba is a dull wax, and exhibits no real shine. What are you seeing is an oil in the mixture, usually dimethyl silicone oil. This is the cheap, greasy, oil, that shines like crazy and is in some detailing products. It is a fact that using this type of oil on your paint can be very difficult to remove as it finds it way and leaches into cracks and voids. If it is not removed completely when repainting a panel, "fisheyes" can form in the paint. This is confirmed in an article out of Professional Carwashing & Detailing Magazine. Oct 2000 issue - Caring For Today's Automobile Finishes. "....Detailers should polish with non-silicone, body-shape-safe products. Silicone causes fish eyes. Occasionally, vehicles are polished and then need paint repairs within a very short period of time. If silicone-based products were used and were not cleaned off properly, they can cause fish eyes in the paint finish...."



Durability issues..........polymer sealants are thin film plastics that are flexible and can flex with your car's paint and expand and contract thermally with the steel panels as well. Wax on the other hand, is hard and brittle. This will not cause the paint to crack, but is one of the reasons why carnuba is not durable. Its inability to contract and expand (flex) thermally with the car causes the system to break down, voids to form, and oils to leech out. These oils evaporate off the surface of the car or are washed of with carwash or rain. The same thing happens at elevated temperatures. At around 150-180 degrees, carnuba wax starts to soften and melt. The oils rise to the surface of the wax and are quickly and easily washed away. On a hot summer day, the surface of a dark car can easily reach 150 + degrees.



I can go on and on, but this was a quick summary I put together from the countless discussions I have had in the past about this very topic.

 

[TortoiseAWD]

If it is not removed completely when repainting a panel, "fisheyes" can form in the paint. This is confirmed in an article out of Professional Carwashing & Detailing Magazine. Oct 2000 issue - Caring For Today's Automobile Finishes. "....Detailers should polish with non-silicone, body-shape-safe products. Silicone causes fish eyes. Occasionally, vehicles are polished and then need paint repairs within a very short period of time. If silicone-based products were used and were not cleaned off properly, they can cause fish eyes in the paint finish...."

I've always disliked this argument against the use of silicone in everyday detailing products (as opposed to polishes actually used in a bodyshop environment) . . . If your painter is so incompetent that he can't properly clean a panel before spraying it, time for a new painter, not a new polish, wax, etc. My understanding is that the fisheye issue will arise from airborne silicones in the shop, OR from improper prep by the painter.



Tort

 

[Scottwax]

I never said glazes and carnaubas don't add anything, they add plenty........of oils and fillers

You say that like it is such a horrible thing. The oils give depth and wetness and fillers in glazes can make a finish correctable to only 85-90% look closer to 100%. Like Accumulator pointed out, you can be limited by the starting condition of the paint, or the reasonable expectation that someone with a daily driver just isn't going to put in the time investment between details to keep the finish as close to perfect as possible. By correcting to 90% and then maybe hiding the rest (as long as the customer understands and it all right with it), in the end you are extending the life of their finish by maintaining maximum clear coat thickness.



Just like on the one steps I do for a customer of mine. They use one step exterior details as a prize for their top performers. The people whose cars they have me do are not the type of people who really care about their cars like high end customers do. They just want it to shine and aren't interested in paying for additional polishing. The free one step their boss pays for is more than good enough. For their cars, I have been using NXT2, specifically because it fills better than anything else I have used. I am out at their office every couple of months and the fillers seem to hold up long enough the cars still look good. Easy money for me, reasonably inexpensive incentive for the boss and the employee's cars still look better than 90% of the rest of the cars in their parking lot. Everyone wins.

I even had a client ask if I thought 10 coats of Zaino was enough or just 5 knowing that I charge an extra $20 per application. I told him 5 would be plenty for the 6-9 months till I do it again.

In all honesty, 2 coats of Z2 or Z5 is sufficient for 6-9 months. Beyond two coats/layers to ensure proper coverage, I haven't noticed any durability benefit adding more of any sealant. :nixweiss

 

[Scottwax]

Occasionally, vehicles are polished and then need paint repairs within a very short period of time. If silicone-based products were used and were not cleaned off properly, they can cause fish eyes in the paint finish...."

It is the responsibility of a body shop to properly prep the car for repainting.

 

[NSXTASY]

In all honesty, 2 coats of Z2 or Z5 is sufficient for 6-9 months. Beyond two coats/layers to ensure proper coverage, I haven't noticed any durability benefit adding more of any sealant. :nixweiss

Scott, your climate/environment must be ideal for sealants and waxes. I get nowhere near the durability of Zaino or 26/Nuba Moose you do. I get a about 2-3 months from Z2. Like you, I see no added benefit beyond 2-3 coats at a time.



Either that or we subjectively differ on durability assessments.

 

[NSXTASY]

Tort, about your Sig, you should of told em' you have a badge and a gun, but don't need motive, just intent.

 

[Accumulator]

... I haven't noticed any particular swirl hiding capabilities with carnaubas and I base this on detailing full time for 14 years...

I'm trying to figure out our differing experiences on that one... :think: I *will* say that the sort of marring I can conceal (to some extent) with "heavy carnaubas" is so light it won't show up under most lighting conditions (at least not to the extent that you can see it readily); it's the sort of stuff that many people don't see even when I point right at it.

..[imperfect but much-improved]..cars still look better than 90% of the rest of the cars in their parking lot..

That's exactly the way I've described a lot of cars! There's a broad middle-ground IMO where something that might not be ("Autopian-level") perfect is still a whole lot better than it would otherwise be, and is good enough for the owner to be happy. My friends who use Deep Crystal/cleaner-wax/etc. would be pretty put off if I called their babies ugly.

If silicone-based products were used and were not cleaned off properly, they can cause fish eyes in the paint finish...."

This seems to be another area where yeah, that's true, but it's risky to generalize too much.



*SOME* silicone-based products permeate the paint and don't want to come out- I've read enough about that to believe it without any first-hand experience (there was some interesting stuff about this put out by Menzerna). And sure, I'd hate to have that stuff on a car that then had to have body/paint work.



But as TortoiseAWD ointed out, many silicone-based products clean off quite easily/well (with the right solvent) and don't cause any problems at all when the vehicle is subsequently painted- I *know* that from decades of first-hand experience. E.g., I've used the old formula of 3M Showcar Paste Wax (a truly high-silicone-content wax that's good stuff) on the A8 and there have been *zero* problems when it's had paintwork, once right after a fresh application of said wax.