Pres. Bush

T

Tasty

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Bush allows eavesdropping. What's next? Checking our mailboxes, intercepting email (oh wait, Carnivore did that), hell just come search our houses without warrants too. Anyone who thinks that this guy is protecting Americans by doing this type of stuff needs to wake up. I find this infringement on our rights to be quite frightening, and the fact that most Americans don't know it's going on is quite alarming as well. I can't wait til his tenure is up, and I don't think history will look kindly upon his presidency. Iraq is a lost cause, and we are wasting valuable resources on a country that will most likely be in major unrest when we leave no matter what we do to prevent it. Pardon my political rant.
 
This is where 911 has ended us.



With the Patriot Act, the gov. can do whatever it wants.



BTW, the Patriot Act was written well before 911, interesting isnt it?
 
Um, I think this site should have a no politics rule. No offense, but this is one of those things you shouldn't talk about with mixed company, it could effect relationships.



Just a thought.
 
Pontman43 said:
Um, I think this site should have a no politics rule. No offense, but this is one of those things you shouldn't talk about with mixed company, it could effect relationships.



Just a thought.
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Many political threads have come and gone here, and usually they remain civil, but if they get out of hand, they are closed or deleted.



C'mon now, you shouldn't base who you like/dislike on their political beliefs. Whether someone likes or hates Bush shouldn't decide your thoughts on that person.
 
I'm curious if the President could do this based on the The War Powers Act. Anyway, President Bush authorized secret monitoring of communications of a handful of people (out of the 280 million US population) with known links to al-Qaeda and related terrorist organizations after 9/11.



Don't forget that CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS WERE BRIEFED 12 TIMES ABOUT THIS in closed sessions. The President DIDN’T do this without informing those on the intelligence committees. News flash people - American law allows this type of surveillance on its citizens. Presidents Lincoln and Roosevelt did this during times of war. However a warrant is required from a secret court, known as a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court which gives permission before intelligence officers can conduct surveillance on US soil. These warrants are almost always granted; basically a rubber stamping. However, these warrants can take weeks to materialize thus losing the element of speed to track down terrorists within the United States. President Bush side stepped this rubber stamping procedure in the name of national security in the wake of 9/11 to aid in thwarting an attack.



The NSA was not going through your average persons' trash picking out skid marked underwear, checking library records, or monitoring e-mail porn site confirmations. Relax, the boogey man isn't coming for you.



Revealing this classified information especially to the press is illegal and the person needs to be punished. Everyone (Democrats if you want to be political) got into a tizzy when that woman CIA agent was allegedly exposed by a White House source despite zero indictments on that specific charge even after weeks of a grand jury hearing. Hopefully we'll have a similar investigation and this source will be found and tried in a court.



People who are against the Patriot Act probably couldn't even describe the basic contents of the Act and its successes - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4756706 Many of its statutes were used for years against mobsters in federal RICO cases and international drug cartel leaders. Old laws have been modernized to deal with cell phones, voice mail and the Internet as well as provide better legal tools to law enforcement agencies for wiretapping and executing search warrants against those who wish to do us harm. It does NOT give the government carte blanche to do whatever they want. That’s an ill-informed, uneducated statement based on one’s own neuroses.



With these secret wiretaps put in place in an expeditious manner, the Federal government won't be slow to thwart another attack. Imagine if we had another terrorist attack and the government failed to move on crucial, timely intelligence like it did on 9/11? The same people complaining now would complain then too. You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. This will speed up the puzzle piecing process to connect the dots quicker to defeat the attempt on US citizens.
 
White95Max said:
Many political threads have come and gone here, and usually they remain civil, but if they get out of hand, they are closed or deleted.



C'mon now, you shouldn't base who you like/dislike on their political beliefs. Whether someone likes or hates Bush shouldn't decide your thoughts on that person.
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Its not really that its based on their political beliefs its just the argumenting will lead to dislike, most of the time. I happen to agree with Spilchy on this and I know democrats wont like him (and now I, just less so) as much for posting info proving theirs wrong. Nobody likes to be proven wrong :furious: , wether democratic or repulican, it just so happens that republicans prove democrats wrong more often. :LOLOL
 
You know it's a funny thing about the U.S. I lived there for ten years and people often asked me if it was very different from Canada - I always said it was but could never really pinpoint *what* was different (aside from all the really obvious small things). Shortly before I left I read an interesting article/thesis/study written by faculty/students in a joint effort from Boston University and Oxford - without getting into too much detail they determined that blood pressure and "stress levels" in Americans were much higher generally than anywhere else in the world - they didn't prioritize what they thought were the reasons but the first one they mentioned was that they felt based on their research that Americans, while no more opinionated than the average person from any other country, have an overwhelming desire to convince other people their opinion is the only right one, and this leads to confrontation and stress. I'm paraphrasing of course, it was a very detailed and interesting article. I just remember that part of it because when I read it I thought "that's the difference".



Sometimes it's ok for other people to have different opinions. It doesn't mean either of you is wrong, and sometimes it's really in each other best interests to accept that not everyone will agree with you all the time. Thinking you're opinion is the only right one is often very shortsighted.



Cheers.
 
Isn't the problem the slippery slope? Where is the line drawn between who is a potential threat and who isn't? Is there going to be revisionist history, claiming that the Watergate break-in was really overblown, because they were really terrorist suspects that Nixon's guys were just checking up on? We defame Saddam Hussein for torturing his own people, then we invade his country and WE torture his people, and it takes a high profile agreement between W. and John McCain to keep the CIA from having carte blanche to do it any time they want to.



All I know is I can't cash my paycheck at the bank it's drawn on now, because I don't have an account there. I was told this was a Patriot Act effect. How me cashing my paycheck is threatening our security escapes me.



(Before you guys flame me, I CAN cash my check there if my employer writes a letter to the bank confirming that I am an employee, and I would only be able to cash it inside, not at the drive-thru. No thanks, I'll just (inconveniently) go to my own bank.)



As Frank Burns said, "I wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me". There is a balance with this...I know it's not 9/10 anymore...but it's not 9/12 anymore either.
 
I echo the views of Spilchy. Now you guys that are upset and hate Bush no matter what he does know how I felt about Clinton. Just remember, Bush is President for 3 more years. Hope you don't get ulcers and high blood pressure over that, but I know you will. :D
 
Picus said:
You know it's a funny thing about the U.S. I lived there for ten years and people often asked me if it was very different from Canada - I always said it was but could never really pinpoint *what* was different (aside from all the really obvious small things). Shortly before I left I read an interesting article/thesis/study written by faculty/students in a joint effort from Boston University and Oxford - without getting into too much detail they determined that blood pressure and "stress levels" in Americans were much higher generally than anywhere else in the world - they didn't prioritize what they thought were the reasons but the first one they mentioned was that they felt based on their research that Americans, while no more opinionated than the average person from any other country, have an overwhelming desire to convince other people their opinion is the only right one, and this leads to confrontation and stress. I'm paraphrasing of course, it was a very detailed and interesting article. I just remember that part of it because when I read it I thought "that's the difference".



Sometimes it's ok for other people to have different opinions. It doesn't mean either of you is wrong, and sometimes it's really in each other best interests to accept that not everyone will agree with you all the time. Thinking you're opinion is the only right one is often very shortsighted.



Cheers.
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Well, I'm glad you can sleep well at night, smugly recalling how Canadians are so much more balanced in the way they are able to express their opinions! :clap:



I've spent a lot of time in your country (and many others), and I've NEVER been to a country where I've found people so obnoxious in trying to ram their opinions (mostly "monkey see, monkey do" regurgitation of the left wing anti-American western media) down peoples throats. :nono :down :down
 
I like how Canadian government's version of our FCC allowed Al Jazeera in on their airwaves but fought against FOX News. Or how their version of our PBS station (the CBC) refers to FOX as "right wing" and doesn't refer to the NY Times with any political leanings. Yet they claim "The CBC occupies a unique position of trust."



That's "balanced" for you!



But Picus is right, it is ok to have different views and talk about them. Everyone agrees that people will have differing opinions. But anyone from any country will argue that their point of view is correct. Then why have an opinion at all? It's debating over opinions that leads to laws, regulations, court decisions, daily life decisions all the time.
 
percynjpn said:
Well, I'm glad you can sleep well at night, smugly recalling how Canadians are so much more balanced in the way they are able to express their opinions! :clap:



I've spent a lot of time in your country (and many others), and I've NEVER been to a country where I've found people so obnoxious in trying to ram their opinions (mostly "monkey see, monkey do" regurgitation of the left wing anti-American western media) down peoples throats. :nono :down :down
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You must be on to something, because Canadians are described as obnoxious all the time... :chuckle:



I'm sorry your visits to Canada have been so poor. We'll try harder to agree with you more next time!



Spilchy - Fox news is the #2 news program in Canada. Someone must be watching it. And for the record I never said debating opinions was a bad thing. What I said was the study I read seemed to think that the irrational belief that everyone has to agree with you is one of the factors that contributed to Americans having high blood pressure. I didn't write it, send hate mail to BU and Oxford. :)



Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go convince some other Canadians on an internet forum that they should vote NDP in our upcomming election...



(Before I get flamed anymore, I'm a dual-citizen and I love both countries in their own way. Sorry for the OT, just thought that article was interesting!)
 
I have no "hate" for our northern neighbors! :ca :hifive: :usa



You guys are just a little misguided ;) (just joking :lol )
 
As previously stated, we have had discussions of this nature on the forums before. As long as it was fairly civil, they stayed. The problems come in when various members took things to a more personal level or feel their opinion is the only correct one and it becomes a flame fest (Like the Zaino vs. Klasse threads back in the day).



Case in point, this discussion is still around because it has been quite civil. If it got to a point where there were personal attacks, flaming, etc., then appropriate action would be taken.
 
I think it's good that we have people in this country who are willing to go up versus things like the Patriot Act simply because it provides for a check against the possiblity of government's complete control over citizens. I mean, imagine if everyone was gung-ho nationalists, we'd end up having 1984 come alive! That being said, it's irrational to believe that the CIA is watching your every move right now and listening to your telephone calls. Increased security is worth a little bit of freedom. It's when that little bit turns into a lot that we have a problem. But wiretapping of a handful of suspected terrorsists and drug cartels really has very little bearing on your freedom and well-being.
 
I agree with a lot of what people are saying on here, but I think what some don't realize is the precedent this stuff sets. I don't buy this broken record rhetoric that we have to do everything preemptively these days, and that you HAVE to be willing to give up a little freedom for that. It's a slippery slope, and I think the inch will turn into a mile. You know it's funny to me that we are so worried about another country attacking us that we will in effect attack that country to prevent their attack. Where's the logic? And this "coalition" that Bush always refers to is laughable. Also, if you don't think that the U.S. is torturing people somewhere on this globe then think again. They simply fly them to other countries and have other people do the dirty work. I think a lot of folks would be singing a different tune if it was one of their relatives being held for years on end in Guantanamo Bay as an "enemy combatant" and being denied all kinds of liberties that we supposedly hold so dear in this country. Terrorism is the new McCarthyism. I respect and actually enjoy everyone's opinions on here because too many people don't have one!! Uninformed voters are scary things.
 
People like you are what prevents the inch from becoming a mile. But the reason our relatives ARENT in Guatanamo bay is because they aren't terrorists. You are saying that every terrorist who cries should get a bottle. People like you forget 9/11 waaaaaaaaay to readily and there is aboslutely NOTHING linking McCarthyism with terrorism.



I agree that Bush is an idiot. Any other president would have been smooth and manipulative enough to justify his actions properly and get the whole world behind him.
 
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