Pres. Bush

I said nothing about the Times? :nixweiss



I didn't even read them. So I don't know if they disagree with my opinion, but somehow I think I know how the FOXnews link would lean.



I'm on dial-up so I try not to even follow links. I need DSL again :(
 
White95Max said:
I said nothing about the Times? :nixweiss



I didn't even read them. So I don't know if they disagree with my opinion, but somehow I think I know how the FOXnews link would lean.



I'm on dial-up so I try not to even follow links. I need DSL again :(



Fair enough. I'm of the opinion, backed by some pretty authoritative people including former presidents Reagan and Clinton and their justice departments, that the president has the power (and the responsibility) to order warrant-less wiretaps of suspected terrorists to keep this country safe.



So I guess you could say I'm biased too.
 
Look, this is all blown out of proportion. Both Carter and Clinton administrations determined the President has this authority.



I lost a friend in the 9/11 attacks. Do I mind if they spy on INTERNATIONAL calls between those connected with Al Qaeda? Of course not, that is their job and I want them to do that.



http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm
 
GSRstilez said:
Its sad to hear from many of them, if you want the "truth" about what is going on, watch BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation).



You must be kidding me. I think Scottwax was correct about your professors with all due respect when it comes to communications. What do you base this recommndation on? They've had their fair share on proveable, biased scandals and had to publicly admit it.



Amazing that conservatives have had to live with NPR, PBS, the NY Times, LA Times, Chicago Tribune, 60 Minutes, CBS and Dan Rather FOR DECADES AND DECADES!!!! Not to mention CNN (owned by Ted "a la Jane Fonda" Turner).



Now, FOX News comes along on CABLE that you have to PAY to receive, and liberals get into a tizzy over the conservative bias. It's so sad and such a hollow argument. THANK GOD for Fox News to bring about reporting to balance out the media! I'm not suprised it's the #1 rated news network on cable. I hope Ruport Murdoch's Sky Network in Britain is just as successful.



But, the BBC as fair and balanced??!! You've got to be kidding me. I watch their nightly news on the PBS station here for a good laugh when it comes to covering Iraq, Israel and the United States.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/30/britain.gilligan/



http://www.globalbritain.org/BBC/Times28Jan05.jpg



http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1572742,00.html
 
SilverLexus said:
Look, this is all blown out of proportion. Both Carter and Clinton administrations determined the President has this authority.



I lost a friend in the 9/11 attacks. Do I mind if they spy on INTERNATIONAL calls between those connected with Al Qaeda? Of course not, that is their job and I want them to do that.



http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm



Um...did you read those links? They refer mostly to physical searches, and still stipulate that they ultimately need to be handled within the FISA rules. It appeared to be mostly a delegation of the application process to other congressionally-confirmed administration members, rather than having to come from the president.
 
SilverLexus said:
Look, this is all blown out of proportion. Both Carter and Clinton administrations determined the President has this authority.



In fact, it was the Carter administration that insituted this program via executive order. Bill Clinton used this power WITHOUT a warrant to eavesdrop not only on phone calls but to issue a WARRANTLESS search of a residence. This happened to the CIA traitor, Aldrich Ames, who worked as a mole for the Russians causing a serious breech of national security.



This same program was used routinely by previous administrations to monitor drug cartel suspects as well.



Again, Congress, in private sessions, was briefed 12 times over this by the administration.



Hopefully since the beans have been spilled, we haven't lost the connection to the suspects' conversations.
 
Here's what I don't understand . . . there's already a secret court and procedures in place (FISA) to do these types of sensitive wiretaps without skirting the Fourth Amendment. FISA allows 72 hours grace to obtain a warrant, so if you're dealing with something time-sensitive, you go ahead and do the tap, then get the warrant through the FISA judge after the fact. If the judge decides there are no grounds for a warrant, the evidence collected during the grace period must be destroyed, and can't be used as evidence.



OK, if this procedure is already in place (and has been since the late '70's), why does the current administration feel the need to circumvent it? With FISA, a compromise is reached between national security concerns and judicial oversight, preventing the executive branch from becoming too powerful. If Bush wants to sidestep FISA, just who is it he wants to eavesdrop on, and for what reasons? The FISA court has only denied something like six warrants since 1978, so it's not as though getting a warrant is difficult as long as there are sufficient grounds.



I'm all for collecting valid intel on the bad guys. I'm not willing to see Fourth Amendment protections diluted to do it.



Tort

Freedom > safety



P.S. What I know of FISA, I've only learned recently . . . if my understanding of FISA is flawed, please let me know how/why.
 
Good point Tort. The question(s) is (are) does the President have this authority based on any written law, executive order, or precedent from previous actions that would allow for this side stepping? I don't think any of us know much about the laws surrounding this.



Also, Congress gave the Preisdent broad authority to do what it takes to thwart another attack, passing a resolution after the 9/11 attacks. Prior Presidents during war time had even more powers.



I believe section 1805 of the FISA allows Bush to do this for 1 year without a warrant. None of this means a hill of beans if these suspects in this country are not US citizens (here on a visa). We don't know, these could have been the suspects.



Like a broken record, prior administrations have used this.



I think we all need a good lesson on the powers that are granted to the President, and any laws that are on the books to allow this (or not allow this). After all, most of the media has drilled into our heads that the "NSA has spied on American citizens" despite that accusation NEVER mentioned in the NY Times article.
 
Spilchy said:
You must be kidding me. I think Scottwax was correct about your professors with all due respect when it comes to communications. What do you base this recommndation on? They've had their fair share on proveable, biased scandals and had to publicly admit it.





Point taken. I emailed my friend(s) to ask for clarification about this comment. I will post my findings once recieved.
 
GSRstilez said:
Point taken. I emailed my friend(s) to ask for clarification about this comment. I will post my findings once recieved.



If I might add...I believe all media, everywhere, is biased. They all have their own agenda. They feed us the facts they want us to hear through their biased filters. ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, BBC, etc. We have been sucking at that teat for so long that it has become very hard not to recognize that we are being lead by the media to draw the conclusions they want us to believe.



You saw Dan Rather and his CBS network attempt to sway a presidential election recently. If it weren't for some bloggers he/they might have gotten away with it. We simply can not believe everything the press says without realizing that they are master of deception and half-truiths.



"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see." Benjamin Franklin



Apparently Ben had some experience with the media too.
 
Seth: Here is the rebuttle I recieved word for word (names taken out):





"Well for starters tell them to check out the Documentary "Outfoxed" it shows how Rupert Murdock the media mogul from England started this channel in the US because he was too conservative to hear other peoples views (like xyxyxyxy) and needed a way to show his conservative outlet. It is everything one needs to know how biased Fox News is. In Fact one of my co-workers used to work there from 2000-2005, she resigned because it got "too conservative, and did not take in the views of liberals and much as they should" before Bush was even elected Bill O'Riely and many others were counting down to how many days it would be before W.gets reelected and how bad Kerry would lose.



Also, the BBC unlike American Media DOES NOT HOLD ANYTHING BACK, unlike CNBC, Fox etc it is unbiased and shows how the world looks at the US in a factual and eye opening manor.
"





My friend works at Kismet Films in NYC, for reference, if needed.
 
Thanks for the reference.



I'm not disputing that FOX is conservatively biased. I'm thankful for it. It beats always having to buy the Weekly Standard and National Review. I'm perfectly fine with that given the other liberal leaning media outlets I mentioned that we've had to endure for years (forgetting to include Ted Kopel as well in my previous post). I'm sure your friend would concede, if he is honest and not so politically motivated (as he has shown to be with his documentary recommendation) that the BBC has had to answer some serious allegations in concerns to biases. The links I provided show just a tid bit of it.



I watch BBC news nightly, and read the BBC website daily, and have been an active member in their "Have Your Say" on their site on many occasions. My opinion on a particular subject was posted last night. So I am well aware of the BBC's reporting habits and biases.



There are alot of fun blogs out there dedicated to monitoring BBC biases (similar to those that monitor FOX).



Here's another opinion http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/02/10/edcross_ed3_.php



or another http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/09/09/do0901.xml



Your friend is woefully misinformed about the BBC and their objectivity. Maybe he (or she) is dazzled by their polite accents, which make them sound important and trustworthy. :lol



edit: People privately pay for FOX News, the BBC is government funded (I believe).
 
I doubt if there is any such thing as unbiased reporting in the same way there is no single truth.



On a side note, every British government has complained the BBC are biased against them.
 
GSRstilez said:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7798.htm





There is the link for "Outfoxed". I'm sure it will stir the pot up (still in the middle of it).



I'll say it again, nobody is denying FOX's conservative reporting and people's CHOICE in deciding to view it. It's no big mystery. The question you need to be asking is WHY is it so popular? Smug, arrogant, dime store elitists (and your professors) will say it's beacuse Amercians are "dumb" or "ill-informed" or think of any other conceivable excuse as to why they find it so hard to believe most people don't think like them.



What's worth noting is that for DECADES we've had liberal leaning (not left wing - that's going too far) reporting in the papers and on television. FOX comes along as a pay for view service, and people like your friend get upset and then say (falsely) look to the BBC for fair and accurate reporting. Does he not listen to Ted Kopel, Mike Wallace, Dan Rather, Sam Donaldson, etc... How about George Stephanopoulos, President Clinton's former press secretary and communications director who has his own ABC's Sunday morning news show This Week? Or Chris Matthews, host of MSNBC's Hardball - who worked for several Democratic politicians and was a presidential speechwriter for four years during the Carter administration?



Why liberals get bent out of shape over FOX is beyond me, when they've been disproportionately over represented in the media for so long (besides talk radio).



Look at Ted Turner's politcal philosophy (180 opposite of Ruport Murdoch). He owns CNN.



Listen, I can't stomach half the reporters on FOX - Shep Smith? He's got to go. Also, I think that blond haired guy John Gibson and O'Reilly should relax about this whole Christmas war thing. Does anyone else think that Judge Napolitano's hair is actually a helmet?! But they have a lot of good round table discussions with conservative and liberal commentators on a daily basis.
 
:LOLOL sorry, not related to the post, just looked at Spilchy's revised signature haha.



Liberals get bent out of shape about FOX because it represents an attack on their domain, the liberal-dominated media. It's the same reason that conservatives get bet out of shape over the Times--it's against your own opinion and on top of that, popular.
 
A discussion from one of Clinton's attorneys:



President had legal authority to OK taps



By John Schmidt

Published December 21, 2005



President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.



The president authorized the NSA program in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks on America. An identifiable group, Al Qaeda, was responsible and believed to be planning future attacks in the United States. Electronic surveillance of communications to or from those who might plausibly be members of or in contact with Al Qaeda was probably the only means of obtaining information about what its members were planning next. No one except the president and the few officials with access to the NSA program can know how valuable such surveillance has been in protecting the nation.



In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.



Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.



In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."



The passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 did not alter the constitutional situation. That law created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that can authorize surveillance directed at an "agent of a foreign power," which includes a foreign terrorist group. Thus, Congress put its weight behind the constitutionality of such surveillance in compliance with the law's procedures.



But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."



Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."



FISA contains a provision making it illegal to "engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute." The term "electronic surveillance" is defined to exclude interception outside the U.S., as done by the NSA, unless there is interception of a communication "sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person" (a U.S. citizen or permanent resident) and the communication is intercepted by "intentionally targeting that United States person." The cryptic descriptions of the NSA program leave unclear whether it involves targeting of identified U.S. citizens. If the surveillance is based upon other kinds of evidence, it would fall outside what a FISA court could authorize and also outside the act's prohibition on electronic surveillance.



The administration has offered the further defense that FISA's reference to surveillance "authorized by statute" is satisfied by congressional passage of the post-Sept. 11 resolution giving the president authority to "use all necessary and appropriate force" to prevent those responsible for Sept. 11 from carrying out further attacks. The administration argues that obtaining intelligence is a necessary and expected component of any military or other use of force to prevent enemy action.



But even if the NSA activity is "electronic surveillance" and the Sept. 11 resolution is not "statutory authorization" within the meaning of FISA, the act still cannot, in the words of the 2002 Court of Review decision, "encroach upon the president's constitutional power."



FISA does not anticipate a post-Sept. 11 situation. What was needed after Sept. 11, according to the president, was surveillance beyond what could be authorized under that kind of individualized case-by-case judgment. It is hard to imagine the Supreme Court second-guessing that presidential judgment.



Should we be afraid of this inherent presidential power? Of course. If surveillance is used only for the purpose of preventing another Sept. 11 type of attack or a similar threat, the harm of interfering with the privacy of people in this country is minimal and the benefit is immense. The danger is that surveillance will not be used solely for that narrow and extraordinary purpose.



But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept.11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again.



----------



John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States. He is now a partner in the Chicago-based law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw.
 
Sherman8r44 said:
Liberals get bent out of shape about FOX because it represents an attack on their domain, the liberal-dominated media. It's the same reason that conservatives get bet out of shape over the Times--it's against your own opinion and on top of that, popular.





Exactly.

Liberals complain about Republican-biased media, and Republicans will complain about liberal-biased media. People just like to complain about things that don't favor their opinion. Everybody does it.
 
Thanks Lee for bringing us back on topic and posting a nice piece to help clarify and define the situation without all the politics involved.
 
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