Other detailing forums

[jwmiller64]

Well.... to answer the original topic of this thread....



There's another enthusiast board at Detail City



Mike Phillips of Meguiars has started his own board at The Art of Polishing Paint



And there is a professionally oriented board at Rightlook



Those are really the only other detailing boards I ever browse outside of Autopia.

 

[Nikon]

Interesting thread. Shineshop you have really started a thought provoking discussion. Good for you!



I think in a lot of ways professional is sometimes hard to clarify. I woudl suggest that there is a continuum on that scale from 1) some one who makes a living at it but is not very good to some one who doesn't make a living at it but is a master of the art. Although, I'm now an accountant, I started out as a mechanic, I apprenticed and achieved my licence. In this respect I was a Professional mechanic and was interested in things that would make my work better and faster. My sense is that is the issue to which you are speaking. I wasn't a master of the trade but I was still a professional and the information and knowledge I needed to improve my skill could not be achieved by listening to weekend mechanics. The needs are different between the two.



I appologize for the rambling nature of this reply but this is my view on Shineshop's commentary. I for one would love to use my rotary better and I would welcome shineshop's advice and help (if only to be pointed to a source of help)

 

[Poorboy]

Quote:"Now ask yourself how many detailers out there have actually spent even as little as 2 days receiving some professional training or certification of some sort and are not just trained by "some guy" who was in turn trained by "some guy"."



Now who decided that they could charge a lot of money and give you a piece of paper that's worth a piece of paper and now you're a professional...That's what gives professionals a bad name......

This is an art where you can do fine automobiles and trucks or you can do a volume business...I chose the first choice and made a lot of money doing no more than 1-2 cars per day.

This site is for knowledge and if people want to spend endless hours on their own vehicle ...all the power to them....for those who are looking for a quick shine and are not showing or putting their vehicles under 5,000watts to see a micro-scratch then they can learn here too.

When you have the time to layer this or that and can wait hours or days between coats that is for the enthusiast..professionals have the limits described previously, especially when you have a large shop and a lot of overhead or employees.

This site is great for learning and as far as rotary use goes..it should be done by a Pro or at least supervised by one....

Last thought...the biggest difference between a Pro and Entusiast is a Pro doesn't have to ask someone else how to correct a problem in a finish..IMO ..

 

[safetyman2010]

eh? :ca





Wow, I didn't know this was going to become a battle over "who's a professional" and crap like that. I must say that frankly to me, if you're a detailer/person who doesn't really feel that detailing is right, or done well/etc. by, "non-professionals," you do not belong here at autopia. We are a site of INDIVIDUAL, NON-PROFESSIONAL hobbyist detailers, atleast for the most part. If you are here to assist these non-pros with information and knowledge, go right ahead. If you are here, as it is starting to seem, only to push that "only pros know detailing and the rest isn't credible whatsoever," get out. Thats pretty simple, IMHO.



:hm

Take it easy there Brother. I never said any of what you have posted and if what I posted was misunderstood then you have my apologies. Don't be so defensive because no one is attacking autopia here. In my opinion, detailing can be performed to at least a reasonable degree of professioanlism by almost anyone who is willing to learn and follow proper processes and procedures so I am not saying that amateurs cannot do a great job with their cars. Further, I would state that over 90% of all so called "professionals" out there do more harm than good and that is what I am taking issue with here. Most of these "pros" have no real technical knowledge of the materials they are working on and more often than not cause more harm than good to the vehicles they "detail". If you think I have a holier than thou attitude - get over it. I was commenting on this site in the "Professional Detailers" section of Autopia which I would assume (mistakenly) is frequented by mostly professionals. If you don't want to hear from me - don't read my posts. I haven't flamed anyone or acted unprofessionally and have received numerous pm regarding this thread and how interesting it has been.

 

[safetyman2010]

I would have to say that the information I've had on this site "is" professional. The ending result, if properly prepped, polished etc will be equivalent if not better than the work performed by a pro. The correct procedures are provided on this site. There is good and not so good info, it has to be filtered. With all due respect, I've come behind "Pros" on several occasions to clean up their work. Depends on your attention to detail and what satisfies your preferences.

I would say "some" of the info on this site is professional and most is somewhat correct. Also I fully believe that you have seen some terrible detail work done by so called pros and did a better job yourself utilizing the info you found here. Congrats and keep up the good work.

 

[safetyman2010]

I LIKE THIS FORUM. We are just people talking about how to keep are car looking like new.To us this is a hobby. We enjoy detailing cars this is not a busness,altho some people make some money doing it .A pro buys his stuff in bulk for the cheapest price he can I know pros that never heard about Klasse Zaino andP21s they dont care they dont do it for fun they do it to make a living.We do it for fun.

I also share your passion for keeping all of my cars looking great and do it for fun (when I have spare time!) but I also earn my living doing it. Hackers buy the cheapest products for the cheapest prices - not pros. Also, just because a product is cheap (or expensive for that matter) does not guarantee quality. If you want the straight dope on detailing products I will let you in on a little secret. There are no magical formulas in this industry. All the products from the reputable manufacturers will provide satisfactory results when put in the hands of someone who knows how to use them properly. Price is my last concern when buying products or equipment. I want the best results - period.

 

[safetyman2010]

I personally think some people are just taking themselves waaaaayyyyy too seriously. It seems like there is way too much of an effort and whole lot of exageration here trying to distiguish pros from the amateurs. I laughed at the comparison of Dentists and Doctors training to that of the training a Detailer receives. We aren't talking about Rocket Science here. Detailing is an art but, the skills required to develop that art just aren't that difficult to aquire with some patience, persistance and a whole lot of practice.

I assume that was directed at me so I'll fire off a response. Do I take myself too seriously? Occasionally. Do I take what I do for a living seriously? Absolutely - 100% of the time and accept nothing less than the best. Neither should you or anyone else. Your analogy and "dumbing down" of the detailing industry is symptomatic of why there are sooooo many bad detailers out there and so few good ones. If it's so easy and requires very little education and training then why are there so few really great professional detailers out there? Ask Scottwax, Orosco or any other pro and they will tell you how any crappy detailers there are and how few really good ones there are. I could hit you with some really technical questions regarding the materials that todays vehicles are made up of and how to treat specific problems with each but I am sure you already know the answers because after all - this isn't rocket science here right? PM me if you wish and we'll see how long it takes you to answer 3 simple questions any well trained detailer should know before EVER touching a car - then and only then after you correctly answer each question can you tell me there is little distinguishing a pro from an amateur.

 

[Jake11375]

I would say "some" of the info on this site is professional and most is somewhat correct. Also I fully believe that you have seen some terrible detail work done by so called pros and did a better job yourself utilizing the info you found here. Congrats and keep up the good work.

You've been busy replying I see. Just want you to know, this wasn't meant as a personal attack on you as a "real" professional, there are different levels of "professionals" (or as you said so called pros )and different levels of "enthusiasts" as well. I agree that (some) of the info on this site is correct and some is not the best. There are professional quality procedures listed here using the alternative methods without rotary skills for example. You can't learn to use a rotary by reading a thread. NE way keep up the good work and showing those "so-called" pros how it's really done!:xyxthumbs

 

[safetyman2010]

Interesting thread. Shineshop you have really started a thought provoking discussion. Good for you!



I think in a lot of ways professional is sometimes hard to clarify. I woudl suggest that there is a continuum on that scale from 1) some one who makes a living at it but is not very good to some one who doesn't make a living at it but is a master of the art. Although, I'm now an accountant, I started out as a mechanic, I apprenticed and achieved my licence. In this respect I was a Professional mechanic and was interested in things that would make my work better and faster. My sense is that is the issue to which you are speaking. I wasn't a master of the trade but I was still a professional and the information and knowledge I needed to improve my skill could not be achieved by listening to weekend mechanics. The needs are different between the two.



I appologize for the rambling nature of this reply but this is my view on Shineshop's commentary. I for one would love to use my rotary better and I would welcome shineshop's advice and help (if only to be pointed to a source of help)

Very well put and you captured exactly the intention of the original post.

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

Take it easy there Brother. I never said any of what you have posted and if what I posted was misunderstood then you have my apologies. Don't be so defensive because no one is attacking autopia here. In my opinion, detailing can be performed to at least a reasonable degree of professioanlism by almost anyone who is willing to learn and follow proper processes and procedures so I am not saying that amateurs cannot do a great job with their cars. Further, I would state that over 90% of all so called "professionals" out there do more harm than good and that is what I am taking issue with here. Most of these "pros" have no real technical knowledge of the materials they are working on and more often than not cause more harm than good to the vehicles they "detail". If you think I have a holier than thou attitude - get over it. I was commenting on this site in the "Professional Detailers" section of Autopia which I would assume (mistakenly) is frequented by mostly professionals. If you don't want to hear from me - don't read my posts. I haven't flamed anyone or acted unprofessionally and have received numerous pm regarding this thread and how interesting it has been.

My appologies, as I did misunderstand some of the positions you were taking in this thread. :wavey



I would however have to say that autopia is geared for a completely different "kind" of professional than what you may be expecting, which is where my misunderstanding lies.

 

[safetyman2010]

Quote:"Now ask yourself how many detailers out there have actually spent even as little as 2 days receiving some professional training or certification of some sort and are not just trained by "some guy" who was in turn trained by "some guy"."



Now who decided that they could charge a lot of money and give you a piece of paper that's worth a piece of paper and now you're a professional...That's what gives professionals a bad name......

This is an art where you can do fine automobiles and trucks or you can do a volume business...I chose the first choice and made a lot of money doing no more than 1-2 cars per day.

This site is for knowledge and if people want to spend endless hours on their own vehicle ...all the power to them....for those who are looking for a quick shine and are not showing or putting their vehicles under 5,000watts to see a micro-scratch then they can learn here too.

When you have the time to layer this or that and can wait hours or days between coats that is for the enthusiast..professionals have the limits described previously, especially when you have a large shop and a lot of overhead or employees.

This site is great for learning and as far as rotary use goes..it should be done by a Pro or at least supervised by one....

Last thought...the biggest difference between a Pro and Entusiast is a Pro doesn't have to ask someone else how to correct a problem in a finish..IMO ..

I wondered how heated this would become before originally posting and what a debate this has become! I have little time left to reply to all the posts so I will summarize my position as follows: A professional detailer is someone who is trained and educated in the art of diagnosing, correcting and protecting a vehicles problems with respect to its appearance. What makes a professional? Certainly not a piece of paper. It's an attitiude of being a professional - just like any other industry. Constantly keeping up to date with the changes and re-educating when necessary to know the proper processes and procedures and when/how to use them. A lack of professionalism is rampant in detailing and it shows by how many people on this board have had a negative experience with having someone detail there car. IMHO anyone who doesn't do these things and take them seriously should stay away from touching anyones car but their own because they give everyone a bad name when they screw things up. This has turned into a huge rant but this stuff really burns me up. The original point was - Autopia is a great site for enthusiasts but it has little to offer an experienced professional in furthering theri skills or business acumen. This doesn't negate its value to the the enthusiast in their pursuit of better car care. End of discussion.

 

[topnotchtouch]

I assume that was directed at me so I'll fire off a response. Do I take myself too seriously? Occasionally. Do I take what I do for a living seriously? Absolutely - 100% of the time and accept nothing less than the best. Neither should you or anyone else. Your analogy and "dumbing down" of the detailing industry is symptomatic of why there are sooooo many bad detailers out there and so few good ones. If it's so easy and requires very little education and training then why are there so few really great professional detailers out there? Ask Scottwax, Orosco or any other pro and they will tell you how any crappy detailers there are and how few really good ones there are. I could hit you with some really technical questions regarding the materials that todays vehicles are made up of and how to treat specific problems with each but I am sure you already know the answers because after all - this isn't rocket science here right? PM me if you wish and we'll see how long it takes you to answer 3 simple questions any well trained detailer should know before EVER touching a car - then and only then after you correctly answer each question can you tell me there is little distinguishing a pro from an amateur.

You can't seriously compare your training to that of a physician? I did not "dumb down" the detailing industry. Lets just see a more appropriate comparison. I would be very interested to know what training you have had and what is out there. Sure, fire off a PM and I will take a shot at the questions

 

[Taxlady]

Let's keep this friendly, after all, Autopia is a friendly place. This looks like one of those discussions where replies should be written off line and reviewed before being posted. Reread the post before firing off a reply.



ShineShop wrote, in part:

The original point was - Autopia is a great site for enthusiasts but it has little to offer an experienced professional in furthering theri [sic] skills or business acumen. This doesn't negate its value to the the enthusiast in their pursuit of better car care.

He isn't attacking Autopia or anyone on Autopia. I think he is making a valid comment about the "Professional Detailers Forum" on Autopia. A professionals only, private forum would very likely have a higher percentage of information useful to professional detailer. How many of the posts in our pro forum are posted by people who work full time at detailing? As far as I can see, there are some posts that are useful to pro detailers, but there is a lot of stuff to wade through.



I post on a forum for professional tax preparers and Intuit Advisors. I'm a member of a list for professional accountants. They very useful to me. They aren't nearly as much fun as Autopia. During income tax season, I would hate to have to wade through a lot of newby questions, repeat questions, and funny posts to get to "the meat". I think that ShineShop was expressing a similar sentiment.



I'm just glad that we have detailing pros posting on Autopia. I can't usually be bothered to post on "open" accouning or income tax boards.

 

[imported_FUEL]

******edit*********





Sorry I better not put that, I dont want to make anyone or their girlfriends mad





Any hoooo



There is only one place to be

Oh Billy so funny nothing better to do again I see....

 

[imported_FUEL]

uh oh...

lol



Actually, it is because you can make comments like that and not get flamed for it that makes Autopia the best place to be. Its true that most of us are enthusiasts. There are a few pros here who help out, like yourself, but most of us are just looking for info for our hobby by others who share the hobby. If we were seriously doing this for a living then I doubt there would be many people debating the shine quality between Souveran and P21S. This is an enthusiast board. If the hard core pros want a place to talk industry talk then there are other forums out there. Autopia is the place for a newbie to come and not get chewed up and spit out for asking a "stupid question". Its pros like ShineShop and others that add the 'hard core professional' perspective to our hobby and make our work stand out from the rest. As far as enthusiast boards I don't think you can find a better one. If you are trying to compare the Professional Detailers forum on Autopia to the hard core pro boards out there then that would be like comparing the detailing forum on Off Topic.net to Autopia. They just don't compare.

Oddly, I agree. Well said.

 

[imported_DetailGirl1]

******edit*********





Sorry I better not put that, I dont want to make anyone or their girlfriends mad





Any hoooo



There is only one place to be

Somebody has issues with moving on! Kind of childish too if you ask me!



But on the up side of things on this site, Autopia is a very pleasant place to be part of and very informational. Wish there were more like this place around! It's also been profitable for some in starting up their own businesses. I love it here!

 

[Scottwax]

While it is true that a person working on their own car can spend as much time as they want working on it, a professional job should not be confined to a set time limit either (within reason). I estimate the time to repair a specific problem and then will try to get the job done in that time but if it needs more time then we spend more time on it. Profit follows quality.

Agreed. I don't have a specific time limit other than my next appointment, but I try to schedule enough of a time buffer in case I run into something unexpected. I try to get as much information about the vehicle's condition, when it was last detailed, etc so I can properly estimate the time it will take. I still try to leave at least an hour between appointments for those lovely suprises, like milkshake spilled between the front seats.



Definitely agree about profit following quality.

 

[Scottwax]

You can't seriously compare your training to that of a physician? I did not "dumb down" the detailing industry. Lets just see a more appropriate comparison. I would be very interested to know what training you have had and what is out there. Sure, fire off a PM and I will take a shot at the questions

I don't think Shine Shop was actually comparing being a physician with being a detailer, other than to be the best in both fields you have to either be properly trained by yourself or a qualified professional (takes much longer to learn yourself!) and to stay ahead, you have to keep up on the latest products, techniques and any new information that is coming out, like how to care for some of the newer finishes or how to deal with industrial fallout and acid rain.



He is definitely right about poorly trained detailers (aka hackers) who give us all a bad name, in addition to the dealerships who seem to have no clue how to use a rotary buffer and leave swirls and burnt paint behind. The detail shop near me has changed names 3 times in 5 years. I've also seen the cars they detail for the used car lots on a nearby street. Massive swirls!

 

[imported_Greg1]

I think there is also an important distinction to be made. While I detail for money and enjoyment, I never claim to be the very best. I present a detail that is going to look great in the customers eyes but maybe Fred with his Toyota Camry doesn't care if I maybe don't know some technical nuance, but is willing to pay me $50-$100 less than the pro who does Ferrari's for a living. I'm saying there are different levels of detailers. In my opinion, I would not worry about a so-called professional here detailing because we are not the people who give detailers a bad name. It's the person who has no interest but money, buys a "How to make money detailing" video, picks up harsh chemicals with his rotary buffer and goes to town. I really don't think we are doing more harm than good. We collectively use good products that we know well and have experience with. We have experience with them because we are passionate about this field and use them on the very automobiles we drive. It's not about the money. I will always help someone for almost free if they show an interest in detailing because I enjoy it most importantly, making money is a perk. Does this make me unprofessional? Maybe in the sense that I am not all about money. It does not make me unprofessional in the quality of work, effort, and time that I put in to make myself better and to learn though.

 

[topnotchtouch]

I don't think Shine Shop was actually comparing being a physician with being a detailer, other than to be the best in both fields you have to either be properly trained by yourself or a qualified professional (takes much longer to learn yourself!) and to stay ahead, you have to keep up on the latest products, techniques and any new information that is coming out, like how to care for some of the newer finishes or how to deal with industrial fallout and acid rain.



He is definitely right about poorly trained detailers (aka hackers) who give us all a bad name, in addition to the dealerships who seem to have no clue how to use a rotary buffer and leave swirls and burnt paint behind. The detail shop near me has changed names 3 times in 5 years. I've also seen the cars they detail for the used car lots on a nearby street. Massive swirls!

Scott,



Just to make sure you understand I have the utmost respect for the professional detailers here. You guys are awesome. It was just the tone of ShineShop's initial message just rubbed me the wrong way.



His intial tone made it sound like it was impossible to learn without professional training. I do agree that it would take longer but, it is not out of the realm of possibilities to be self-taught and professional.



About poorly trained detailers, there are people in pretty much every field that should not be working but still manage to take jobs away from people who know what they are doing. These are the people who have perfected the art of BS to such a high degree that people ignore their own common sense and hire them anyway.



I would also be interested to know what training he has and maybe others out of curiosity as well as what training is out there for those of us possibly interested in pursuing training.