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rjstaaf said:
You can't seriously compare your training to that of a physician? I did not "dumb down" the detailing industry. Lets just see a more appropriate comparison. I would be very interested to know what training you have had and what is out there. Sure, fire off a PM and I will take a shot at the questions :)
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Perhaps I can clarify my post in more simple terms you can understand. I don't believe I compared the number of years and amount of training a physician needs to become a doctor to that of a detailer. I believe I said that detailers need to take the business as seriously as any other professional does such as a doctor, lawyer or mechanic etc... Obviously you would not need as much training as a doctor but you do need to know a lot to be a well educated detailer. By saying detailing isn't rocket science you negate the very technical knowledge and specific processes necessary to correct a lot of problems inherent with modern cars and the materials they are made of. If you want some technical questions to answer you can pm me and I will reply when it is convenient for me.
 
ShineShop said:
Perhaps I can clarify my post in more simple terms you can understand. I don't believe I compared the number of years and amount of training a physician needs to become a doctor to that of a detailer. I believe I said that detailers need to take the business as seriously as any other professional does such as a doctor, lawyer or mechanic etc... Obviously you would not need as much training as a doctor but you do need to know a lot to be a well educated detailer. By saying detailing isn't rocket science you negate the very technical knowledge and specific processes necessary to correct a lot of problems inherent with modern cars and the materials they are made of. If you want some technical questions to answer you can pm me and I will reply when it is convenient for me.
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On the other hand though you make it sound like professionalism is out of reach for anyone who has not attended formal "training". That is where my beef with your initial comments rests. You mention that apprenticship training is just "a guy" training "a guy". Formal training is really "a guy with a piece of paper" training "a guy". I don't put a lot of faith in certfications. I have worked in the IT industry for over 15 years and have seen so many Microsoft Certified System Engineers who barely know how to turn on a computer and on the other hand I have also seen lots of guys who barely made it out of high school writing sophisticated programs that would blow your socks off. Formal training is NOT the be all and end all of "professionalism"!



Anyway I know others are tired of this thread. I am calling it quits. If you want to continue PM me. I would be very interested in what training you have had and what is available out there.



Thanks
 
Amazing....

This thread started with a simple question?

Other detailing forums



Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al

Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-n&l, -'fe-sh&-n&l

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1748

1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace

2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

- pro·fes·sion·al·ly adverb

my 2 cents
 
Man, I had no idea Autopians are so insecure...



There are advantages to recieving professional training. There are advantages to professional equipment, like circular polishers, extractors, ozone machines, thermal foggers & paint thickness gauges. No, a PC does not remove paint defects "just as good as" a circular polisher. No, a spray on cleaner & scrub brush is no substitute for a powerful extractor. No, Ozium does not remove odors as well as an ozone generator or thermal fogger.



How many of us have to deal with paint problems like severly pitted, etched, or stained paint. How exactly do old laquer paints react with strong solvent found in bug & tar removers? How many of us would really feel comfortable spraying Brand X wheel cleaner on non-clear coated aluminum or magnesium wheels. How many of us regularly have to deal with interiors containing blood, vomit, ****, urine, rotten food & god knows what else. How frequently do we have to remove nasty stains from leather.. be it coated or uncoated.



The point is most of us non-proffessional Autopians are detailing very well maintained vehicles, and we do a very good job of it. We don't have to spend a lot of time on nasty stuff, so we can focus on tweaking the shine of the paint and getting just the right matte effect on the dash. I would be willing to bet that if I gave ShineShop my Regal to detail, it wouldn't come back looking any better than when it left. But if we both went to work on one of the rolling disaster areas that I'm sure professionals like ShineShop and Auto Care USA see everyday, I would be put to shame. I know for a fact he would get it done better & faster. Not for a lack of effort or desire to do good work on my part, but he has three things I don't... professional training, professional equipment, and professional experience.



End of rant, and I thank all of the professional detailers who frequent Autopia for sharing their knowledge.
 
BlackRegal said:
Man, I had no idea Autopians are so insecure...



There are advantages to recieving professional training. There are advantages to professional equipment, like circular polishers, extractors, ozone machines, thermal foggers & paint thickness gauges. No, a PC does not remove paint defects "just as good as" a circular polisher. No, a spray on cleaner & scrub brush is no substitute for a powerful extractor. No, Ozium does not remove odors as well as an ozone generator or thermal fogger.



How many of us have to deal with paint problems like severly pitted, etched, or stained paint. How exactly do old laquer paints react with strong solvent found in bug & tar removers? How many of us would really feel comfortable spraying Brand X wheel cleaner on non-clear coated aluminum or magnesium wheels. How many of us regularly have to deal with interiors containing blood, vomit, ****, urine, rotten food & god knows what else. How frequently do we have to remove nasty stains from leather.. be it coated or uncoated.



The point is most of us non-proffessional Autopians are detailing very well maintained vehicles, and we do a very good job of it. We don't have to spend a lot of time on nasty stuff, so we can focus on tweaking the shine of the paint and getting just the right matte effect on the dash. I would be willing to bet that if I gave ShineShop my Regal to detail, it wouldn't come back looking any better than when it left. But if we both went to work on one of the rolling disaster areas that I'm sure professionals like ShineShop and Auto Care USA see everyday, I would be put to shame. I know for a fact he would get it done better & faster. Not for a lack of effort or desire to do good work on my part, but he has three things I don't... professional training, professional equipment, and professional experience.



End of rant, and I thank all of the professional detailers who frequent Autopia for sharing their knowledge.
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Very well said!
 
I do see ShineShop’s original point that Autopia does cater to the professional that knows everything that many of us are still learning. It’s just an attitude of superiority that seems to come from his posts. I’m not saying that he is doing it on purpose, it’s probably just his writing style.



But, anyone who considers himself a serious professional can have that attitude. He may scoff at our discussion of ‘layering’ or use of different products, but many of us can be considered guilty of the same crime. Who hasn’t seem someone detail their car with Turtle Wax and an old t-shirt and shaken their head? I’ve had friends look at my arsenal of products and comment how they only have one can of stuff and that’s ‘good enough’ for them.



One more point…There are a ton of doctors out there that finished last in their class.
 
Time to add my 0.02 I guess.



I've learnt alot since I started detailing for money, like how long it takes to do various levels of detail and how best (and quickest) to deal with certain problems.





Now onto the 'Professional Training' question.



In my 'previous life' aka the last 14 years or so I spent looking after industrial control systems. 4 years trade apprenticeship, 4 years of college.



Just to give you an idea a typical refinery (around 180,00 barrels a day or so) will spend around $90 million on a decent front end control system.

That doesnt include all the field equipment and any specialist kit like PLC gateways or LAN interface nodes.



Bear in mind these systems RUN the place.

They f*&k up, things go BOOM in a pretty big way.



Anyone wanting to see exactly what I mean, type 'Piper Alpha' into a search engine.

Short story version was the systems went wrong, people bypassed them (naughty) and the oil rig blew up, killing 100s of people.



Yes we got hacks in that game too, and yes, they are F*&&^^%g dangerous!!

Ruin a cars paintwork, it costs a few 000's to fix.

Make a booboo on an Emergency Shutdown System or Fire & Gas System you could easily kill a few hundred and cost the company a few 100 million.



Anyways, back to the 'training'.



YES anyone can 'fiddle around' and be anything they want.

They can talk up a great front and seem to be The Man.



Its only when someone with a little knowledge delves a little deeper that they find out that the guys really a hack.



People, given time, can usually learn a trade.



They probably even get to be quite good at it after the initial fubars.



Most folks however, will hit a 'level' where the only way to advance is to be professionally taught about the kit they work with, be it cars, oil rigs or banana boats.



It all comes down to which level of 'Pro' you want to attain.



The difference between the Top Level Pro and the Hack is basically, in my view, 3 things :



1) A willingness to share information and experience.

Anyone who 'hides' what he does is obviously insecure in his work.

Sure I could hand someone my tools, even tell them what to do but it doesnt mean they would be as good as me!



2)The Little Things.

Theres always short cuts and little tips that make the Pros life easier.

Amazingly, seen as most trades have been around forever, anyone with a bit of experience will soon either find them out or be told them.

Anyone who doesnt know the most common ones prolly hasnt been around long.



3)Pride in your work.

My view is if your only going to half do something, why bother at all ?

I go the extra half mile just so I'm happy it'll stay in one piece when I leave the job.

Sure folks can lash it up and say 'It'll Do' but whats a craft if you dont strive for perfection?

(Within the boudaries of practicality of course!)



Sorry for the ramblings, but I've met many a hack whos left me a god awful mess to clear up.



Enthusiastic Amateurs are great as long as they know their boundaries.
 
I agree with you and I'm not quoting for lenght reasons.



As I 've showed in some pics I posted, part of my detail job time has been cleaning the s***t some pros at paint shops did to some cars with their 'wool pad+aggressive polish+make money fast'.



I want to be proud of what I do, so, I can only do it right.



If I started doing this only 3 or 4 months ago and I can do it right, well...
 
Wow, this thread sure took a 90 degree turn! :eek: Very good points made on all sides of the debate, so here's my 2 cents:



I personally look at the Professional Detailers Forum in very simple, broad terms. I see it as the place to discuss or post questions relating to detailing other people's cars for money and make no more distinctions in the level of skill or expertise involved. If Joe Blow got an offer from a fellow deskjocky, for example, to detail his car for a few bucks, that would be the place to ask any basic questions and it should be fine. If MegaDetail Inc. wants to ask something about the open market demographics related to blah blah blah (hey I know nothing okay? :p) then that should be okay too. In other words, it's just a divider between topics related to detailing for fun and as a hobby, as opposed to detailing for "customers".



That's my personal perspective, as simplistic as it sounds, and the reason why I hardly ever post anything there. :)
 
BlackRegal said:
Well.... to answer the original topic of this thread....



There's another enthusiast board at Detail City



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Detail city you say. I tried to register on that site to see what they are about. They ban me ever time. Then once they allowed me on but wont let me post.

I think they know I am NYD from autopia.

I sent them about 3 emails but i only got one repsonse and that

person was leaning towards a post about staples and photo coping that i said a while back.



I think they are afraid to let real detailers on the site and give real info and help.
 
Boy I just read all these threads. I am blown away how a simple question turned into a war of words. When to many egos get in the way this is whay happens. It' s your pride that makes this business an art. Every good thought that we have, and every good action we perform, lays us open to pride, and thus exposes us to the various assults of vanity and self-satisfaction. The difference betwwen a wise man and a wise guy is plenty. Lets all learn from each other....even our mistakes.
 
NY detailer said:
Detail city you say. I tried to register on that site to see what they are about. They ban me ever time. Then once they allowed me on but wont let me post.

I think they know I am NYD from autopia.

I sent them about 3 emails but i only got one repsonse and that

person was leaning towards a post about staples and photo coping that i said a while back.



I think they are afraid to let real detailers on the site and give real info and help.
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Must be your magnetic personality .......



Hey look on the plus side - your still allowed to post here.



:xyxthumbs
 
Smoker said:
Must be your magnetic personality .......



Hey look on the plus side - your still allowed to post here.



:xyxthumbs
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Not sure if you are joking or flaming. so i wont respond right now.



as for detail city, i tried to log on and they still wont let me post.

There loss, I read some of those post and had no choice but to laugh at the wanna be autopia site.

NYD
 
Bumpers Plus said:
I think its a FLAME:angry :angry :angry
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I think you're only looking for flames
instagib.gif




Smoker has this British humor, that's all
fencing.gif
 
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